On Wednesday, June 21, 2023, the A+ Book Club had the honor of chatting with Samantha Allen, author of Patricia Wants to Cuddle and all around lovely individual. Stay tuned for updates on the summer’s upcoming book clubs!

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Nico: This is where we’ll be having the book club chat! That will start at like 5pm PST / 8pm EST. Thanks all for joining us!

While we wait, where’s everyone logging in from tonight?

Samantha: Seattle, Washington!

socks: I’m near Denver

Sadie: Hi y’all! Cambridge ma

Nico:  Hello fellow east-coaster @Sadie – logging in from Pittsburgh over here!

Sadie: Yay Pittsburgh! I’ve blown glass there

Nico: Ooooh at the Glass Center?

Sadie: The very same, PGC, got to learn from the one & only Nancy Callan there

Samantha: Do you like the Netflix glassblowing competition show?

Nico: I’m always curious about what the people who actually do those crafts think of netflix shows like that (and the forged one, etc).

Sadie: I haven’t watched it, I enjoyed hearing some about it from friends who did, I’ve rubbed elbows with some of the peeps

Samantha: It’s Chihuly city over here. His fiefdom!

donnajaypgh: Also Pittsburgh

Carmen: Hi everyone!

autumn (they/any): oklahoma city!

Sadie: Tis indeed

Nico (they/them): Awesome to see a fellow Pittsburgher! @donnajaypgh

Hi @Carmen (she/her) !

Carmen (she/her): very excited to be here with everyone

Nico (they/them): We’ll just wait a couple more minutes for folks to arrive and then we can get started Thanks again to everyone for being here and huge thanks to @Samantha

Samantha: Thanks so much for having me — to be invited to hang out with Autostraddle peeps? The highest honor, truly

Nico (they/them): I also want to note that I made a bunch of Pride flag Sasquatch custom emojis for our chat, should anyone want to make use of those.

 

also a no flag bigfoot

Samantha: oh my goodness!!!!

Sadie: Oh y’all we had our first pride march since 2019 10 days ago,.so winnerful

autumn (they/any): love

donnajaypgh: Nico

Samantha: I’ll just react to everything with lesbian Sasquatch now

Nico (they/them): nothing would bring me more joy

donnajaypgh: We haven’t even started and this is the best thing on the internet

Samantha: you can’t spell bigfoot without bi

Nico (they/them): you canNOT

can Saphsquatch be a pun, does that work?

Samantha: it’s something!

we’ll workshop it

Nico (they/them): hahaa

it does not roll off the tongue

Carmen (she/her): I’m sorry but this is just so cute

Samantha:

donnajaypgh: Is your phone just full of Sasquatch memes and GIFs?

Samantha: At this point, yes! Many, many people have sent me the strutting one above — I think this is an actual Sasquatch influencer of some sort?

librarian starr (she/they): omg “sasquatch influencer” is a thing?! i love this

Samantha: (https://www.instagram.com/bigfoot_bae/)

Nico (they/them): Okay everyone – though some folks may still drift in, I think this is a great time to get started. It’s an honor to welcome Samantha Allen author of “Patricia Wants to Cuddle” — the subject of tonight’s chat — as well as “Real Queer America: LGBT Stories from Red States.” She’s also an editor with Them.us and a freelance writer, so you can find her work all over! How we usually do this is by staggering questions so that everyone can more easily follow the replies. So I’m going to ask for about 2 or 3 questions to start us off and then ask that folks feel free to also chime in while Samantha takes some time to answer, and then as those questions get answered, feel free to ask more! At the end, I usually ask the author if there’s anything they would like to ask the book club, which is a chance to get feedback or other insights. Finally, the transcript from this will be published for A+ members who couldn’t make it next week! This book was so twisty it gave me the distinct sensation that I was also running for my life in a dark forest, so I’m really looking forward to tonight’s discussion. I see that @donnajaypgh has started us off with a light one, but does anyone else have any questions you want to kick us off with? And thank you all again for being here!

Samantha: It’s an absolute delight to be here! My typing fingers are ready to answer any and all Patricia questions!

Nico (they/them): omg wait that isn’t just a one-off GIF that’s her whole thing??? there’s more bigfoot influencer content? incredible.

librarian starr (she/they): I thought the ending was so unexpected–as I read it, I kept thinking how unusual it is to read a book and have absolutely no idea where it will end up. Did you always have the ending in mind, or did you struggle at all with what that end point would be?

Samantha: Yeah, 1.5 million TikTok followers! Find the right niche and be richly rewarded, apparently!

Thanks @librarian starr (she/they)! I always knew the book would end with one of the contestants embracing the monster and living on Otters Island. The final image of Renee petting Patricia’s arm on the mountaintop crystallized about a third of the way through writing and then it was just a matter of getting there. The biggest struggle was making Renee’s “turn” believable, and for that I looked to plant a lot of things I deal with (depression, anxiety, yearning for nature and detachment from technology) into her arc as early as possible… (edited)

(I had Midsommar as one reference point. Where a horror movie like The Wicker Man ends with its outsider character rejecting the island and getting punished for it, I sort of love the way Midsommar subverted that trope and had its outsider character grimly embracing the new society. I tend to find that latter closing beat to be queerer.) (edited)

librarian starr (she/they): i love that subversion–thanks for the insight!

socks (she/her): I haven’t had a chance to finish the book yet but I wanted to say as someone who is newly working on sobriety I loved the inclusion of a sober character. The book might go into it more in depth later (sorry, planning to finish once life slows down after this week!) but I just wanted to say thank you for including that, and I’m wondering if you could speak more on that aspect of the character!

autumn (they/any): i’m super interested in the lineage of monsters being used to thematically convey queerness, etc. lady bigfoot feels kind of perfect to me for the center of a lesbian/queer cult… that said, was she always bigfoot? did you ever think about a werewolf, etc. or creating a new monster? what interests you about bigfoot in general? (lol sorry that’s more than one q)

Samantha: Absolutely! @socks (she/her) I’m not sober myself, but have friends who are, and my life is really fairly uncoupled from alcohol, I’d say? I was raised Mormon, left the Church, tried it for a while, and then had open-heart surgery so I largely don’t drink for health reasons anymore. I’ll have a glass of wine a few times a year, max. I thought making Renee sober was an interesting way to accentuate her outside-looking-in perspective, and to make her stick out even more from the (very much) alcohol-driven practices of reality TV production. Casey is plying everyone with champagne and Renee is clear-eyed through that entire Truth or Dare scene

Samantha: Thanks @autumn (they/any)! So originally, in very early conception stages, I thought the killer would be a human. I pictured it feeling more like a classic 80s slasher. Maybe a former contestant stalking the production? As the book evolved and the themes deepened, I felt like I needed something larger-than-life, so I started thinking about monsters!

A lady Sasquatch was the clear choice for me because she symbolized everything many cis straight white women on reality shows are afraid of being perceived as. She’s big, she’s hairy, she’s a little gross. A lot of queer and trans feelings definitely got poured into her. (edited)

socks (she/her): Thank you, love that! I agree that it adds a special nuance to her perspective.

autumn (they/any): yes!!! exactly

Nico (they/them): That’s incredible and is also like, really resonating for me in terms of Renee’s immediately being drawn to Patricia.

Samantha: That’s why Bachelor world fascinates me: all the Dyson air wraps, all of the hair extensions, all of the body waxing

Nico (they/them): A completely different question related to the Bachelor world: what did your research into the nature of reality shows / the behind-the-scenes of dating shows like The Bachelor entail? I’ve heard word of mouth that your book was actually pretty realistic in that regard!

Samantha: Why read Judith Butler when the Bachelor proves that gender is performative?

Thx @Nico (they/them) ! I am a longtime Bachelor viewer and have since watched a lot of the Netflix reality shows, and dipped my toes in the very deep pond that is Love Island.

I’ve listened to multiple Bachelor podcasts especially for several years, so that helped a lot with insights into production, and the way contestants feel like they’re treated/edited on the show! My world got very surreal after the release of this book because I went on Pilot Pete’s podcast and Connor (the cat man) B.’s IG Live and they were like, “How did you know what happens on this show?” And I was like, “From listening to you all!!!”

I’d definitely recommend UnReal in this regard, too! The show, in my opinion, jumps the shark pretty early on, but that first season does such a fantastic job of capturing the sort of manipulation tactics people talk about enduring.

Nico (they/them): I will have to check that out! Thank you

Who’s got another question? I saw some typing earlier

Samantha: Thanks for all of these so far. They’re all great.

librarian starr (she/they): Did you conceptualize the book first in terms of plot–you said an earlier version was more like a standard slasher, with a human killer–or did the idea start with more of a theme or idea you wanted to convey? I hear authors start from lots of different points, and I’m always interested to hear which parts came first, or were most fully realized early on.

I’m particularly interested in that when it comes to queer writers, because we don’t walways follow “standard” practice

Samantha: Concept definitely came first @librarian starr (she/they)! I think the first Google Doc said “Bachelor slasher.” The structure followed immediately from there: contestants getting killed one by one. Then I needed a “locked room,” and I’m enamored with the San Juan Islands, so Orcas (“Otters”) presented itself. Early on — and bear in mind this is my first fiction — I just wanted people to think it was clever and funny, I think. So there’s a version of the first 5,000 words out there that’s just very commercial satire. But I basically found that I couldn’t keep going if I didn’t have something deeper I wanted to convey, and that’s where Patricia as an avatar for queer/trans loneliness and Renee’s feelings of alienation (and of course the Maggie-Kathy backstory, which I sobbed writing) entered the picture. And that’s when the book really got started (edited)

At that point, my agent was like, “Yeah, I didn’t think you were capable of just writing the down-the-middle spoof,” meant as a compliment, she assured me.

autumn (they/any): which was your favorite perspective to write that wasn’t renee and maggie-kathy backstory?

Samantha: Amanda, definitely

It’s a grass is always greener on the other side situation, I’m sure, but I wish I could be Amanda

autumn (they/any): seriously she is just dancing thru life

Samantha: I’d say Casey was easiest to write from because she has all of my worst tendencies

Nico (they/them): Haha oh no

autumn (they/any): ooo that’s so interesting! one of my fave parts of the casey POV was her thinking “i am the little god of these people’s lives” and the contestants being like omg casey is so straightforwardly manipulating me

Samantha: She’s judgmental, she loves working more than anything else. I took bad things I recognized about myself and dialed them up for her.

autumn (they/any): relatable

Samantha: God they were all so fun to write in the end though. Lilah-Mae is like me if I had been born cis and never left the Church

It’s so easy to get in touch with her mindset if you were raised how I was!

Nico (they/them): Similarly, in terms of craft I guess, how did you develop everyone’s distinct voice? Like, idk I think I could have identified most people without being told.

librarian starr (she/they): Agreed, i was raised that way, and recognized all-too-much of Past Church Me in her

Nico (they/them): It sounds like you def were putting parts of yourself or your desires into each person tho from what you’re saying so far.

Samantha: My editor helped push me a lot there @Nico (they/them) . Earlier stabs at Vanessa didn’t sound Vanessa-y enough. And the tricky line throughout was with the closeness of the narration. Obviously I need to do pretty close third-person for emotional states but I also wanted liberty to pull out just a tiny bit for wry commentary or description of the action.

With Renee, I felt fairly unfiltered. Casey, like I said, was taking my inner honor roll high school nerd and turning off all feeling. Lilah-Mae, I just put myself in the familiar headspace of “Everything I encounter and perceive has to be filtered through a fairly rigid orthodoxy.” And then Vanessa, I was just trying to think “slinky, sexy, super direct.”

I tried to let the style and voice emerge from there, and in editing, would trim away stuff that didn’t feel like it was sticking true to those core character traits

.croe.: I was wondering if there was a concrete reasoning for Vanessa to be the one to get the intercom scoop of production stuff?

Nico (they/them): One of my favorite details, added bits of richness from the perspectives was the way each character had a different perception of the other characters — and especially when it came to Patricia’s eyes. Everyone described them differently and this is not a question I just noticed and loved it.

Samantha: So glad you noticed! Yes, it was important to me that Amanda was like “oh my God, YUCK!” whereas Renee’s terms of reference are much more respectful and awed. I think I tried to avoid “it” for Patricia in Renee’s final sections, for instance, whereas other characters were free to de-anthropomorphize her in that way

It was dizzying to keep track of, honestly! It’s a very short book, but it has in total something like seven different perspectives, plus the message boards, so the fact that it feels coherent at all I’m counting as a victory.

Samantha: Yeah @.croe.! At this point Casey knows that she’s setting up a Vanessa vs Amanda vs Lilah Mae showdown for the remaining slot in the final, so she’s trying to rev up everyone. Vanessa’s a little self-assured of victory (she didn’t know about Amanda and Jeremy’s near-tryst on the yacht) so Casey is deliberately doing this to get under her skin and make her feel insecure going into the evening date

Samantha: lol

Years of lurking on the Bachelor subreddit finally paid off

socks (she/her): Speaking of which, I got a real kick out of some of the usernames on the message boards!

Samantha: Yeah, even there, I developed mini personalities for each user

.croe.: I LOVED the message boards!!

librarian starr (she/they): they were so much fun and felt so TRUE

Samantha: Is there a Rick in there or something? He was my pedantic guy, and then there was the “Dex is my zaddy” girl so I had to track those too

Nico (they/them): I felt that!!

@librarian starr (she/they): they were so much fun and felt so TRUE

.croe.: Especially the addition of mods lol

.croe.: I thought it was so Internet for miss “dex is my zaddy” to be like RIP Dex but like are we getting a release date?

Samantha: lolol

she lives for the content

Martini: Was the length of the book a conscious choice? Publishing pressure? Just the way it worked out? The closing arc all happened so fast — was that a deliberate contrast with the earlier slow-build mystery? Rather than having a drawn-out stalk to the finish?

Samantha: There were pages on the cutting room floor @Martini! I had sections written from Dex and Jeremy’s perspective if you can believe it, and while I miss the Dex pages, I think no one will miss Jeremy’s POV. That said, I wanted the gory third act to feel blunt, jarring, and conclusive. I came from the horror movie philosophy of “everyone but the Final Girl is dead, credits roll, get out!” (Some more thoughts…)

I go back and forth on this, especially as some readers definitely have been vocal about wanting “100 more pages” or some such. I think if I gave “100 more pages,” a reader might not want them! And I’d rather err on the side of people wanting more than less. My editor and I tried to make sure it was very svelte and spartan, leaving enough mystery to chew on, and room for readers to form their own theories about how Otters Island functions, but while still answering some major plot questions (what happened to Live Journal girl, e.g.)

Nico (they/them): Also, like, speaking of, for example, Dex is my zaddy, what’s your process for making sure something you *think is funny is funny? Do you just trust yourself? Do you work with your editor? Do you bounce random ideas off friends?

.croe.: I was going to ask if you wrote from any other POVs that didn’t make it!! Even as I was reading I was like what’s Dex thinking or does he have no thoughts lol

Nico (they/them): I mean, I do want to know all those things, but also the way the book left me wanting that made it stick. So, not wrong! (Or I don’t think so)

Samantha: Thanks for asking this though @Martini — it’s the #1 thing I’ve thought about since release, easily. Definitely some deliberate horror choices here (don’t show more of the monster than you have to, don’t linger past the final kill, answer the big questions but leave some open) that I’ve had to learn to just… stick by!

oh my gosh there’s a Dex death scene from his POV @.croe. and it’s my number one “what if?” he’s fading in a pool of his own blood, and Maggie is standing over him, saying “Thank you” over and over again because he brought the production to Otters

Nico (they/them): THAT IS SO CREEPY

love, also

Samantha: Oh, and if anyone’s read the paperback, the material at the very end is new! It was my compromise for the “100 pages” readers! (It’s like three pages of the islanders chatting, so I drive a hard bargain, but still… it’s something!)

.croe.: Omg!!! That’s amazing! Love love love, sounds so creepy (complimentary)

Nico (they/them): “THAT IS SO CREEPY (complimentary)” is def what I should have said

autumn (they/any): this is not a question but the men in the book are so heinous and also compelling (besides mike who is… just mike). that chat in the woods with jeremy and renee is almost as horrific as the killings because it’s so true to life! like yes! this is how this dirtbag will treat you once he deems you unfuckable (edited)

Samantha: (Last thought on that! I definitely wanted it to be a single-sitting book for people who wanted to blow through it, and I think drawing out act three would have maybe pushed it just out of reach. My favorite thing is when someone sits down with it, and a few hours later, emerges, and is like, “WTF did I just read?” I think the brevity works in my favor in producing that sensation.)

aw thx @autumn (they/any) !!!!

Mike is the himbo who must, unfortunately, die. Sorry, Mike

Nico (they/them): I definitely felt like I was running for my life in a dark forest.

Samantha: But the Jeremy/Renee dynamic comes from years of listening to and observing how contestants of color have been treated on reality dating shows especially @autumn (they/any)

Samantha: That dynamic of “I desire you, but I would never be with you.”

autumn (they/any): i definitely felt that! also felt in the way contestants of color have to fight to be seen as human rather than “animal” as opposed to white contestants and how renee has to grapple with that, too in her connection with nature, etc. (edited)

.croe.: Omg is it wrong I was so sad that the crime was pinned on Mike? Like he’s just a guy doing his Himbo Best don’t be rude

Samantha: Someone’s gotta take the fall, and it’s not gonna be Maggie! She’s got sheep to tend to and pastries to make.

autumn (they/any): no it’s true… he’s just a guy!

Samantha: And when people like Jeremy are caught in that contradictory headspace, they lash out.

Nico (they/them): I was wondering how you pinned Jeremy down like that, but of course, you have consumed so much of the source material. Was there any more source material that influenced Jeremy?

Samantha: LOL. Definitely The Social Network

Samantha: Just seeing how many spineless talentless creeps glom onto anything approaching a “good” (but actually amoral and deeply toubled) idea in Silicon Valley was very formative @Nico (they/them)

Like you have Zuck coding the thing, and then the money has to come from somewhere, and the money comes with a string attached (“please take care of my failson”)

This is a fun fact: Jeremy originally snuck in the car headed down to check on Dex instead of Mike (edited)

and got drowned in the lake instead of Casey

But yeah, my editor was like “Patricia has to kill Jeremy, how could you not see that, you absolute fool” (nicer)

.croe.: Lmao!! I was about to say I think the lady Bigfoot death is more cathartic for sure, but any Jeremy death will be appreciated

Samantha: And I liked Casey being the one marched to the lake in the end. She dies how I will die being like, “I should have worked more…”

Nico (they/them): it was truly devastating

.croe.: It hit that much harder bc it felt like a metaphorical drowning in her own overworking mentality (it’s me I’m Casey)

donnajaypgh: I was actually deeply sad when Casey died; she was such a great character and she reminded me of Rachel on Unreal. I don’t know if I’d call her unreliable, but as many have said, I found her deeply relatable, and I was very sympathetic.

Samantha: There’s a paragraph in there about how she likes to ask each of the contestants in pre-interviews what they care about, and how if she answered that question, it would be The Catch every time. It was maybe one of my top three favorite passages to write in the book!

Nico (they/them): Hey all as we are nearing our final 10-ish minutes, I wanted to open the floor for @Samantha to ask us any questions that you have for the book club / readers of your book!

Samantha: Absolutely! So I think my first question is a selfish one: what kinds of queer fiction are you most into right now? (vibe-wise, genre-wise). I’ve just sold my next novel (details TBA) but I’m very much wanting to know what you’re in the mood for

like… are we over Weird Women’s Fiction? are we into internetty things? what do people want to read?

librarian starr (she/they): Oooo, i am so excited to hear those details! Honestly, I read queer fiction (and almost exclusively queer fiction, or fiction by BIPOC authors) in many many genres… I’m loving that the lesbian/wlw romance genre is FINALLY getting filled with more quality books, but i’ll always read more… but i would love more things like thrillers, mysteries (think line Kathy Reich’s forensic science-y Bones series) and the like (edited)

Nico (they/them): Let’s see: I mean, I do think that of all the books I read that have stuck in my mind the most…they’ve all been some entry (though different) into the horror genre. I DO love it when there are elements of horror added to contemporary situations that I either feel a part of or feel familiar with. (Not queer, but think of the horror movie Superhost which is hilarious). I also think that I just really want a book to make me laugh sometimes, even and especially if the humor is very dry or even sinister. These are dark times so I need dark laughs.

autumn (they/any): i think i want more humor but humor with depth, would honestly just love to see queer fiction filled out the way everything else is. BUT more specifically, not over weird women’s fiction, i love weird women lmao, especially love weird gay women. also — to see queer characters in spaces that aren’t fantasy (tho i LOVE fantasy)

librarian starr (she/they): I’m glad there are now a lot of queer YA books, but y’all, i don’t think i ever again will need or want to read another coming-of-age/angsty book.

donnajaypgh: I’ve been loving smart, funny queer romance (like Alexis Hall) but my favorite book this year besides Patricia that I have been recommending endlessly is the Terraformers by Annalee Newitz. Sweeping sci-fi, queer, summed up with the elevator pitch of “what if we built planets for profit?”
@librarian starr (she/they)

I’m glad there are now a lot of queer YA books, but y’all, i don’t think i ever again will need or want to read another coming-of-age/angsty book.

Nico (they/them): Similarly, I don’t really read YA, very much in search of adult books.

Samantha: I avoid coming of age, personally! Growing up once was hard enough

.croe.: I’m going to add “these are dark times so I need dark laughs” into my daily lexicon thank youuuuu

Nico (they/them): Amazing. I love this.

librarian starr (she/they): And i love that there are a lot of very erudite collections of essays and stuff, but honestly i’m lookign for anything easy to consume (doesn’t have to be fluffy, altho that’s okay, but i love the fast pace of this book) and for the love of Dog, please HAVE HUMOR.

Samantha: This is all very helpful. Very important question: Would you cuddle Patricia?

librarian starr (she/they): in a heartbeat.

autumn (they/any): 100% would also give her a chaste kiss on the cheek

Nico (they/them): How does Patricia know whether I am a pro-Pratricia-cuddler or not?!? How does she sense it?

librarian starr (she/they): (disclaimer, i would be terrified doing it)

donnajaypgh: We Stan our Sasquatch queen

Nico (they/them): I’m afraid I would reach out a hand to stroke her hair / initiate cuddling her and like an unpredictable cat, things would go sideways and I’d lose my arm.

Carmen (she/her): Nico!!

Nico (they/them): Y’all have been great. If anyone else has anything to say @here, now’s the time!

Otherwise, thank you so, so much @Samantha for being here and chatting with us and for bringing us such an absolutely twisty ride of a book. I hope you all find some queer magic in the woods.

Samantha: Patricia doesn’t know her own strength sadly

Dismemberment is always a risk with her

librarian starr (she/they): thanks so much to @Samantha for doing this, and @Nico (they/them) & co. for setting this up! i have LONG planned to be On The AS Discords, and this is the first time i made it. Y’all are all amazeballs

.croe.: One last thing: I would love to see a Patricia Wants to Cuddle mini series or something (edited)

Samantha: This has been so so delightful for me. I feel so welcomed and so happy

You’re in luck @.croe. !!!

Nico (they/them): WHAT

.croe.: SAY MORE RIGHT NOW!!

Samantha: It has been optioned and is in early stages of development, and should pick back up once the WGA strike has ended

Nico (they/them): first of all, congratulations!!!

Carmen (she/her): Whoa! Breaking news at the end here!

Nico (they/them): second of all (selfishly) amazing, love this for me and my TV watching

Samantha: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cj3QzyOJBwf/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
neebess

Carmen (she/her): Thats amazing!!!

Nico (they/them): WOW

Samantha: Hopefully coming within a couple of years. I can’t say who yet but a really amazing writer is attached

Someone Autostraddle would love, I’m sure!

.croe.: This just made my week!!

Carmen (she/her): ABC Signature is a great match for this story.

autumn (they/any): congratulations and thank you so much!!!

donnajaypgh: Yay! Thank you so much for such a great book and for such a fun evening @Samantha and @Nico (they/them)

Samantha: Thank you everyone!!!!

Carmen (she/her): I also want to say thank you all for such a great conversation, and great night.

It’s been absolutely wonderful.

socks (she/her): Thank you!!

.croe.: Thank you!!

Nico (they/them): Thank you all so much. Server will disappear shortly, but it was so great to spend time with y’all.