Boris Lermontov: Why do you want to dance?
Victoria Page: Why do you want to live?
Boris Lermontov: Well, I don’t know exactly why, but, uh, I must.
Victoria Page: That’s my answer too.

When I first heard this famous exchange from the 1948 film The Red Shoes, I felt a part of my soul expressed for the first time. No, my love wasn’t dance — my sister took ballet, as the boy I did sports — but Victoria Page’s passion for ballet is how I felt about making movies. It wasn’t an interest, it wasn’t a career goal; it was like taking a breath, it was life itself.

Even in the arts it’s rare to meet people who share this depth of love for their work. But in the new documentary Swan Song about the National Ballet of Canada’s production of Swan Lake, the way one dancer spoke immediately clicked with this experience.

Shaelynn Estrada loves ballet. She really fucking loves it. It’s evident in the documentary and it’s evident when speaking to her.

And yet in the documentary, she describes this love as unrequited. In part due to her queerness, in part due to her social class, in part due to ballet just being really, really hard on one’s body and mind. Nevertheless, her love hasn’t wavered. As a trans person in the film industry, the fraught nature of her artistic love was as relatable as its intensity.

I spoke with Shaelynn about the origin of her love of ballet, how she navigates that world as a queer woman, and the thin line between being honest and being an asshole.

Drew: Are you coming from rehearsal?

Shaelynn: Yeah that’s why I look like a sweaty piece of shit. (laughs)

Drew: (laughs) Was it a good day? What are you working on right now?

Shaelynn: It was super intense. Physically and emotionally. So exhausting. But so good. I wouldn’t say I did a great job? But we’re working on David Dawson’s The Four Seasons right now and Dawson is one of my favorite choreographers of all time. Doing his choreography is like ugh I’m obsessed.

Drew: Based on the documentary, maybe I can answer this but is “difficult but amazing” an average day? Or was today especially difficult?

Shaelynn: Any time we’re doing like— This is kind of a neoclassical piece, so all of the movements are very extreme. It’s really expansive and physical. And I am obsessed with it, so I obviously want to do great. It’s kind of typical, but at least for me it feels like the stakes are higher when it’s Dawson. Not every day is as intense as today. Today was a lot.

Photo by Christopher Sherman

Drew: How did you first fall in love with ballet?

Shaelynn: I saw it on TV when I was like two. My mom was sick and had to stay home from church and my dad didn’t want to take me with him in case I had to piss or something. I don’t know. Fucking weird. Anyway my mom happened to flip through PBS and they were showing Swan Lake. I’m pretty sure it was Swan Lake. And I was like (gasp). I was so obsessed. From that day forward it was like, “My name is Shaelynn and I’m going to be a ballerina.”

Drew: What were the next steps of that process?

Shaelynn: I annoyed the shit out of my parents until around four they were like, okay I guess we have to find somewhere for you to dance that’s not crazy expensive. We were living in Florida and I just went to a Dolly Dinkle ballet school, which ended up being a really good place for me. I was just so obsessed! Even the teacher in my first ballet class told my mom, “You should let her know that she’s not actually going to be a ballerina. Most little girls don’t do that. And she is not…” I mean, I was scoliosis, knock-kneed, pigeon-toed, and I was not a cute kid.

Drew: (laughs)

Shaelynn: The ballet teacher was like, “You should fucking tell her sooner than later that that’s not gonna happen.” And I was like… well.

Drew: By the time you were a teenager was it starting to feel more attainable?

Shaelynn: I just decided. I did not give a shit about my talent or societal class. I was like, I don’t give a shit what I have to do, I will do this. At nine years old, I started doing privates. My mom worked at my ballet school as a receptionist, so that my brother and I could train. He was also dancing at the time. I was like, I’m serious about this. And because of that, my first few teachers were like, damn she is gonna do it, I’ll help her. Even though we didn’t have money. I mean, my whole life I’ve had to go off scholarships.

I always knew I’d do it. But I guess around 14 or 15 I started getting big scholarships and offers to move away. We relocated to Philly so I could go to The Rock School. The whole time I was just like, I’m literally gonna fucking do it.

Drew: And then how did you end up at the National Ballet of Canada?

Shaelynn: So after The Rock School, I went to Ellison Ballet in New York City. My hero Mr. Ellison! Then I danced at Houston Ballet for two years right out of school. And then I sent an audition tape to National Ballet. It was after their deadline had technically closed but I was like fuck it I’m still going to try. I’ve always loved this company. I’ve always loved some of the dancers here. Since I was a kid, I had pictures of Heather (Ogden) and Jurgita (Dronina). Like there are literally still posters of Jurgita on the wall in my dad’s hallway. So I really wanted to come here and my friend Jason was dancing here at the time, so I sent my shit in. They said I could come take class and I did and then they offered me a job. But they offered me the job on April Fool’s.

Drew: (laughs)

Shaelynn: My girlfriend in the film — she’s like my best friend — was like, what if they’re joking??

Drew: (laughs)

Shaelynn: I was like, bitch! Don’t say that!

Drew: Oh my God.

Shaelynn: But then yeah I just moved here.

Photo by Christopher Sherman

Drew: Are there certain performances you remember throughout all those years that really stuck with you? I mean, that first Swan Lake on PBS, of course, but I imagine that was even before your earliest memories?

Shaelynn: Yeah. (laughs)

Drew: What else has been really meaningful?

Shaelynn: There are so many. A lot of my favorite moments come from rehearsals. From watching. Even today, I watched Heather Ogden do Four Seasons pas de deux and I had goosebumps all over my arms. I was like I’m so fucking lucky! I love this so much. This is so beautiful. Literally today that happened.

Also my very last night in New York City, I got to see the 50th anniversary of George Balanchine’s Jewels at Lincoln Center. It was Bolshoi Theatre, Paris Opera, and New York City Ballet. They each did a section. That performance was crazy. Also because I wasn’t supposed to go and then my ballet teacher gave me his ticket. Because obviously I couldn’t afford shit. And then when I saw it I was crying. We’d just performed it too.

Also Crystal Pite’s Angels’ Atlas which luckily we do a lot. It’s one of my favorite things to perform and to watch. It’s so incredible.

Drew: It’s so fun hearing you talk about ballet. I don’t know that much about ballet, but I’ve always loved it. I loved watching my sister do it when I was a kid and The Red Shoes has always been one of my favorite movies. But I don’t know that many specifics, so I’m really excited to look these all up.

Shaelynn: I have all the recommendations. I will literally send you a list. (laughs)

Drew: Amazing.

What’s your experience been like as a queer woman in the ballet world?

Shaelynn: It’s weird. It’s a really bizarre thing. I mean, I was always thinking about it in a paranoia kind of way when I was younger and even my first couple seasons here. Because there are all of these gay guys in ballet. The stereotype is every guy is gay and that’s not the reality either. But that is so welcomed and expected. Then for girls it’s like, no, no, no. You’re supposed to have a boyfriend or a husband. So many of the ballerinas are married with kids. Which is so amazing. Literally God bless.

Drew: (laughs)

Shaelynn: No, I’m serious! Love that. Honestly. So jealous. But it’s just so weird. My first season here I was 19 or 20. And I was so terrified. I thought everyone would hate me. I felt so self-conscious about if the girls even wanted to change in front of me in the locker room. I was so scared. But then I was like, well I don’t really give a fuck. If someone doesn’t like me because I’m queer, then obviously I don’t want to have anything to do with them.

It’s also interesting because in terms of classical ballet — and even most contemporary works — it’s all about the guy saving the girl. That’s the dynamic. It’s always a girl and a guy. And like bang bang cool I’m obsessed with it. Literally. I love it. But it creates a culture. It’s not even just that no one talks about it — it’s like it doesn’t exist.

Drew: I’m a little surprised that over the last 5-10 years as things have shifted in other cultures and communities that it’s still that way. I mean, have you seen any changes over the years?

Shaelynn: No, definitely, I have seen some change. It’s getting better. And, I mean, in terms of classical ballet, I’m not going to say I think it should be pas de deux with two girls. Just like given the histories of the ballets, that’s not what I’m wanting. I’m not sure that’s super necessary. But it’s more in the environment and atmosphere. Like we’re in the arts. The assumption is it’s super progressive. But then you say you have a girlfriend and people are like, I’m sorry, you have a girlfriend? Did I hear you correctly?

But definitely it is getting better. And there are a lot of people doing really cool fucking shit. There’s a dancer named Lauren Flower and she runs an Instagram called @queerwomendancers. And there’s another called @queertheballet. Even in our Swan Lake, Rob Binet choreographed a part in the friends dance in the first act where there are two girls dancing together and it’s a lovey moment. There’s a kiss on the cheek and they’re supposed to be girlfriends. So it is changing. I’m just not sure why anyone would give a shit in the first place.

Drew: Yeah and when you have this career and this passion you spend so much of your time doing it. Not being around a lot of other queer women is a specific experience.

Shaelynn: Yeah, I mean, I have to go outside of work to find people, but I don’t really do it because I’m very focused on ballet. It’s so cool that after the documentary I have people messaging me being like, hey I think it’s so cool that you’re doing this and that you’re talking about stuff or whatever. It’s bringing more people into my life who are cool and just support the idea of who gives a fuck.

But I also don’t know if my otherness or my feeling outside of the group is just a me thing. I know I’m not the most sociable or the quickest to make friends. It also has a lot to do with like… the ballet world has a lot of pretty little blondes, daddy is a doctor type girls.

Drew: Sure, it’s also about class.

Shaelynn: Yes. It’s class. That’s really what it is.

Drew: But that’s also what makes these things so challenging. I work in film and I’ve often been the only trans person in rooms and it’s that thing where you feel a little crazy. Because it’s like how much is just the baggage I’m bringing? How much of it are other elements? And how much of it is actually this identity point? And you don’t get to know. Because unless people are being really awful, you don’t know. I mean, people often don’t even know themselves that they’re uncomfortable. But you can feel it?

Shaelynn: Yeah. They’re like, oh I’m not uncomfortable. But you’re like… you don’t seem comfy! It’s so that. All the time I’m like, is it me?

Photo by Christopher Sherman

Drew: You mentioned people reaching out to you after the documentary. What was the experience like filming it? And at what point did you realize you’d be such a big focus?

Shaelynn: Honestly, the experience was awesome. Chelsea and Sean are such amazing people and they make sure that they build teams of amazing people. Good people that have the eye or the vision who are respectful and want to do good shit too. I loved the process.

They were filming a bunch and then there was one point where Chelsea did a 10-15 minute Zoom meeting with every dancer in the company. And then after our call, they miked me for one rehearsal. And then Sean and Chelsea asked me to dinner in between shows and they were just like, so we want to feature you, we want you to be a main subject. This was when we thought it was just a series so it was like six or seven of us as subjects. And I was like, yeah totally I’m down. I love ballet. Do whatever. If you think it’ll be good. I was kind of like I don’t know why but sure! I was super open from the beginning, because I love the ballet documentaries I’ve seen, so I was like oh my God I actually get to be in one? Then I was miked all the time. They were following me during my lunch breaks asking me questions.

Then after everything was done and we were close to seeing it, they were like so it’s really you, Karen, and Yurgita. And I was like… shit. (laughs) Because they were there with us for so long! I didn’t remember what I said! I was a little worried, because fuck I know who I am. My personality can play off as the asshole. I am a bit of an asshole.

Drew: I would say you’re honest. But yeah I can see how honest can sometimes be misconstrued as asshole.

Shaelynn: Yeah to me honesty is number one. Apparently it is not for most people. And so there’s a bit of— I mean I was also homeschooled so I have half of a social skill. (laughs) So they were just like it’s you babe. And I was like shit. And then they sent me the poster and I was like oh fuck shit. I was like oh my god okay.

But them being there and filming was so awesome. I feel like I made actual connections and real friends. I have so many emotions and it was nice to have someone give a shit about me and have them even ask like, “How are you feeling after that?” I mean, I talk about really dark fucking shit in it and the team was amazing. They were like, “Are you okay? Do you want to keep going? We can stop. Are you feeling comfortable?” And I was like wow you guys are fucking awesome. Just having someone give a shit and care and even just pay attention. Yeah it was for film and TV but to have them give a shit about me was so cool! It was really nice and refreshing to get to express even a portion of the emotions that I’m feeling all the time.

Drew: Once you saw the film, how did you feel?

Shaelynn: Once I saw it, I was like, wow. I mean, I trusted Sean and Chelsea. I knew they wouldn’t do me dirty. That’s why I was so honest. And I was even more honest in the shit that isn’t included. (laughs) I felt really relieved and really happy that I got to talk about stuff that I feel like a lot of people don’t talk about. Especially eating disorders because I’m pissed off about this shit. But yeah I was really relieved and happy. Super nervous for my family to see it but I was very proud of everything. And then teenage girls would message me and be like I struggle with self-harm and you talking about it was really cool. Stuff like that made me feel like, okay good. I’m really proud of it. And it was kind of therapy for me too which is good I guess. (laughs)

Photo by Christopher Sherman

Swan Song is now available to rent.

Before you go! Autostraddle runs on the reader support of our AF+ Members. If this article meant something to you today — if it informed you or made you smile or feel seen, will you consider joining AF and supporting the people who make this queer media site possible?

Join AF+!