Lady Gaga appeared on Watch What Happens Live yesterday after what appears to have been an underwater escapade that resulted in a starfish getting caught in her triumphant hairdo.
While on the program, certified homosexual Andy Cohen inquired about Lady Gaga’s past experiences with ladies. Lady Gaga has openly declared her bisexuality about a million times over the past five years, yet the news that she has engaged in bisexual activities, such as dating both men and women, remains shocking to the mainstream press.
Gaga told Andy Cohen:
“I’ve taken a few dips in the lady pond. I like girls. I’ve said that (before). I know people think I just say things to be shocking, but I actually do like pussy. It just depends on whose pussy it is…. I love them because I find lesbians to be way more daring than straight men when it comes to coming on to you, and I really like that. And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love.”
Just in case that wasn’t enough material to inspire defamatory tirades in The Daily Mail comments section, Lady Gaga went on to defend Miley Cyrus:
“I think everybody needs to lighten up and leave her alone. It’s pop music, and everybody’s entitled to their own artistic expression and if you have a problem with that, just change the channel. I don’t understand the incessant need to go on and on about hating things. She’s 20 years old, and if anything, I give her props because she’s growing up in front of the entire world and maybe she’s not so happy with the things that she did in her career when she was younger and she wants to be free. Let her do what she wants.”
who’s got no pants on now
In conclusion, Lady Gaga and Miley Cyrus should tongue kiss at the next MTV VMAs just to test whether or not it’s possible for Facebook to spontaneously combust. In other news, global warming is totally still a thing!
Yay pussy!!!
Boo cultural appropriation. :(
I think Gaga is mainly defending Miley from all of the “slut” criticisms that she has been receiving since the VMAs. Mainly because most of the mainstream criticism of the VMA performance (that I have seen) has focused on the nude bikini, sexy dancing, and simulated masturbation. I also have a pretty strong suspicion that Lady Gaga does not know what the phrase “cultural appropriation” means, and I doubt that she is aware that Miley is being criticized for it.
This an interesting point! Lets talk about this!
It seems likely (and I’d like to hope that it’s true) that you’re right about this. Because defending Miley on the “slut” basis is a thing that needs to happen.
(On the other hand, if she were aware of the cultural appropriation criticism… Most of me thinks she would still defend it :( but the hopeful part of me, well, hopes that that awareness might be because she had actually started consuming the progressive media that was making those critiques and this might lead her to actually look critically at her own work?)
googles cultural appropriation lol
Interesting that she appreciates lesbians who come on strong. My biggest problem trying to find dates or girlfriends was queer women saying I “come on too strong” – though I wonder if this is a location-based thing, because it was far easier for me to find dates (inc current girlfriend!) in the US compared to Australia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT7OsMSyyg8
Just gonna leave this here.
I don’t know, I found her comments to be pretty troubling. It’s the bad stereotypes about bisexuals all over again isn’t it?
…is it?
See below. lol
I stand by my comment. See below.
I’m not following your meaning. I posted my troubled feelings and other commenters articulated things quite nicely. Why are you asking me short, unclear questions? What do you want from me?
o___O? Uhh…? I’m not sure where you’re getting the impression that I’m interrogating you… I don’t agree that Lady Gaga’s comments buy into the “bad” stereotypes for bisexuals, for reasons that other people expressed below. I was simply responding in like to you, since you were initially giving me a curt reply…
No, you asked a short, interrogative question that could be taken many ways. My statement of troubled feelings was all that it needed to be. Since you asked a short, confusing question that seemed to be putting me on the spot, I refered you to the comments from people who actually had thought-out opinions on the subject.
Your first question was some sort of interrogation. Do you not understand how conversation works? Am I supposed to read your mind?
No. This is not “the bad stereotypes about bisexuals all over again”. Lady Gaga is not taking about stereotypical bisexuals.
She is not taking about bisexualS at all.
She IS bisexual. And she is talking about herself.
And from farther down this thread: “Maybe she is an ally? Nope.”
DAMN RIGHT she is not an ally. She is bisexual. That’s what the B is for in the alphabet soup. (Or have you maybe not gotten past L&G yet, I know it’s hard keeping track of us all.)
You know who is failing to be an ally, though? Every sanctimonious non-bisexual here who is commenting and ‘liking’ comments about her “horrible behavior” or her “sexist bisexuality”.
Sexist bisexuality? Really? Tell me, do you choose who your sexuality because of what a good feminist you are?
Does this thread make you happy? Congrats! You’re a bigot. Want a gold star? Oh wait, maybe you already have one? Is that where you got the idea that you have the right to police other people’s sexuality?
Maybe, just maybe, this kind of shit is why bisexuals have the highest incidence of depression among us queers? Think maybe you could try not contributing to that too much?
I can think of all kinds of non-sexist, non-homophobic explanations for her “behaviour”. (And I very much appreciate the people here who have supplied some.) But at the end of the day, how about you all shut up and stop making people justify who it is they’re attracted to and why.
Isn’t that kinda what all these rights we’re fight over are all about?
It’s impossible not to see sexism in someone who says “I like pussy, I like lesbians” but I only fall in love with men. Thank you very much! It’s like saying that lesbians are good to play with and have fun, but when it comes to the real deal, men have the priority.
On what grounds can you judge this position as non sexist? She didn’t say, I like men more than women, she said, I like men who behave like women (but of course I’d never fall in love with a woman).
She can love who she likes as far as I’m concerned and I am totally free of seeing sexism in someone who justifies her choice like this. If she is sexist, it’s her problem first and foremost.
SHE REMINDED ME OF ELVIS PRESLEY’s PRODUCET the first he saw Elvis. He thought “I have finally found a white man who can sing and dance like a black man”. Would not that be racist? Or just love of the music?
Please let’s not be naive. Sexism is rampant and can be found where you least expect it.
Ok. I actually can’t get over how messed up the idea of “sexist bisexuality” is.
Seriously? You think her sexuality is sexist… You think that’s even a coherent concept?
Her sexuality isn’t a “position” she has adopted. It’s who she loves, likes, wants to fuck.
Tell me, on what collection of biases and political positions you’ve based your sexuality? What informs your decisions about who you are romantically or sexually attracted to? (and ask any romantically inclined asexual person, they’ll assure you that those two don’t have to go hand in hand.)
So, tell me you love women ’cause you’re such a good feminist.
Or could it be that maybe she actually knows exactly who she’s attracted to?
Maybe she has a better understanding of her sexuality than you do?
Maybe, just maybe, she was born that way?
If sexuality was just a matter of being born one way, then why are people slow in coming to terms with it? Why is coming out to yourself difficult? Because it’s not just a matter of genes, but also of social influence and peer pressure.
“who you love and want to fuck” is not just a matter of being born that way, but also of becoming conscious and acknowledging who you love and want to fuck. Did you know that female gay marriage is on the rise in all countries where this is possible while make gay marriage is stable? Is that because more and more women are being born that way, or because society becoming less sexist makes women more “lovable”? And women who are attracted to other women less afraid of acknowledging their orientation, coming out to themselves and to other people?
“Tell me, on what collection of biases and political positions you’ve based your sexuality?”
I wouldn’t be an out lesbian if I had been raised in the middle ages, that’s for sure; and it would have been a lot harder to come out to myself in the middle ages. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to meet lesbians, have sex with them and build relationships as I am able to do now.
“What informs your decisions about who you are romantically or sexually attracted to?”
Biology AND society. When I talk about sexism I refer to the latter.
A few more words on the idea of “sexist bisexuality”. It is the difficulty of realizing that you are attracted to women equally or more than you are attracted to men. You like women more, but because society makes women less lovable and valuable than men, you fight the cognitive dissonance between your desires and everyone else’s desires. Gay men don’t experience that; everyone understands that men are more valuable than women so it’s normal to fall in love with men.
So your bisexuality is sexist because your attraction to women is under-acknowledged: for example, you are really a lesbian but are afraid to admit that you only like women. Or perhaps you like women and men equally but are afraid to admit that you don’t like men more.
Frankly, when someone says, I admire women, I like lesbians and I like pussy; but I only fall in love with men, it makes me think: what is it in men that you like more, since you’ve said that lesbians are amazing?? She did not answer this question. And I think the answer is cultural and rooted in her being raised in a traditional family, Italian on top of it.
Maybe she’s an all for gay men, but this woman is truly and profoundly and unconsciously sexist.
If you prefer men, fine; but someone who goes around saying I like pussy I like lesbians but for some strange reason I only fall in love with men… well, we’ve got a problem. And the problem is sexism.
Except you’re not contractually obliged to fall in love with people you’re sexually attracted to. That’s complete and utter bullshit. If we take a bisexual person who only has sex with men but cannot fall in love with them, are we to fault her for being sexist because she isn’t capable of falling in love with men? I mean, really. Is she a better bisexual because she’s more “feminist” when in reality, it’s just the way her mind is wired for sex and love?
Sweetheart, we’re all sexist. Comes with having been raised in a sexist culture. Some of us are more aware of our biases than others. I have no idea where on that scale Lady Gaga sits, and neither do you.
But the problem we have here is that in a community of queer* women you think it’s remotely acceptable to voice the paternalistic and bi-phobic idea that either her sexuality is wrong or that she is wrong about her sexuality.
That either she is a poor confused little bisexual who can’t possibly understand her own desires and you’re here to tell her what’s what.
Or that her sexuality itself is sexist. That there is something inherently wrong with who she is attracted to and why.
So would you kindly climb down off that high horse and examine your own biases?
You’re making this space feel incredibly unsafe.
I think bisexuals are fine if they love all sexes equally, but less fine if they see one sex as a toy just to have fun with, and another sex as respectable and lovable. I don’t think men are happy when women see them as toys but only fall in love with other women. You can ask them, but in my experience they see it as lack of love and respect. So why us women should be happy when women do this to us?
“Sweetheart, we’re all sexist. Comes with having been raised in a sexist culture”
Exactly! That’s the biggest bias we should be aware of.
Ok. Barbara, I’m going to assume you are well intentioned and that when you say that sexism is “the biggest bias we should be aware of” that you don’t mean we shouldn’t be critical wrt bi/trans*/homo-phobia, racism, classicism, ableism, cissexism, or any other system of oppression I’ve forgotten or am unaware of.
And that therefore you don’t think that being a good feminist means you have a license to be bigoted in other respects. (Or that it is even possible to be a good feminist while being bigoted in other respects, given how gender intersects with just about everything else.)
I will also assume you agree with the widely accepted precept of anti-oppressive thought that the members of the oppressed group get to decide what is oppressive – not the oppressors.
So, I’m going to assume that when I tell you your stance is bigoted and bi-phobic you will want to do everything in your power to understand why I’m saying that and what you could do to avoid creating and unsafe and oppressive space for bisexuals (and the other non-monosexual folk who tend to get lumped in with them.
First of all, you should probably read everything I’ve written very carefully. Because I’ve actually already explained what the problem is. And honestly, it’s not my job to teach you and only have so much time and energy.
If you have any questions or want clarification on any points I’ve made I will be very happy to help you. But I think I’m done responding to your ideas of how you somehow understand anyone’s sexuality better than they do on account of you’ve heard of sexism.
I’ve already made my point about bisexuals. To clarify, these are the things I do and don’t understand.
Things I understand / am happy with:
1) being attracted / falling in love with both sexes equally, on all levels (attraction, behaviour, relationships)
2) being attracted by women and never falling in love with them; being attracted by men and happening to fall in love with one of them
Things I don’t understand / am unhappy with:
3) being attracted by / looking for sex with women, while waiting for a man to “fall in love with” who is as similar as possible to those women.
If someone can explain to me why point 3 happens, and convincingly argue that the reason is different from sexism, I’d be more than happy to discover that sexism is less of a problem than I suspect. But at the moment I don’t see any other explanation.
You can call it bi-phobia, but I’ve never met a bi-phobic who is fine with points 1 and 2!! I’m probably not your ordinary bi-phobic, if I am one at all ;)
I can try to explain why #3 happens, admittedly, only from my own experience.
In general, people are self-centered. They are obsessed with their own experiences and have a hard time wrapping their brains around feelings that are different from what they have experienced.
I am bisexual (or something like that) and I married a man when I was 19. He was only the second person I had dated and the one before that was also male. Even though I knew I was something-like-bisexual, I couldn’t fathom being in love with a woman because I was in love with a man. To be honest, I couldn’t fathom being in love with any other man, either. I was so wrapped up in my own little life.
When we divorced (when I was 27), I had casual (very casual) relationships with men and women. I assumed the next time I fell in love, it would be with a man, because it always had been before. If you would have asked me about “relationships with women”, I probably would have said something as cringe-worthy as what Gaga said. I couldn’t picture what my life would look like with a woman. I couldn’t imagine a woman I could fall in love with.
But I did. I fell in love with an awesome woman. I didn’t realize that I would (or could!) until it happened.
What Gaga said makes her sound like a nitwit. But she is only speaking her truth, drawn from her life and her experiences. She is the same age now that I was when I met my current partner. She has a limited amount of life experience to draw from. Yes, she sounds offensive, but to me mostly she sounds clueless.
So I don’t think it has to be fueled by sexism. Sometimes it’s just created by the limitations of our own imagination and how small our experiences have really been.
Admittedly, the entrenched sexism of our society does play a role in all of that. Women who might otherwise enjoy relationships with women might be discouraged from doing so by growing up drenched in the patriarchy and therefore having no framework for what a relationship with a woman would be like. And if you don’t have that framework you might say something silly or hurtful like Gaga said.
People cannot help who they love. Seriously. Even the hypothetical sexist bisexual in example #3 can’t. That was me. I was dating whoever, waiting to fall in love with the next dude…but surprise, that dude was a woman. I wasn’t waiting for a dude because I thought a relationship with a woman was “less than” or undesirable. I was just clouded by my experience. I didn’t, like, try not to fall in love with my partner because she is a woman. I relished it. It rocked my world. It was just a big surprise.
If that hypothetical bisexual in #3 never does fall in love with a woman, if it is always a man, it’s probably not because she is trying to reject the possibility of finding love with a woman because she is sexist. Who would do that? Who would look love in the face and say “no! you are not a man! We can have sex but I refuse to love you!” Instead, it’s probably she is not in love with a woman. And that’s okay, right? That’s not something she can help and it’s not something she should be ashamed of.
Being “happy with” some expressions of bisexuality doesn’t give you a pass to blast other expressions. And it doesn’t mean you’re not biphobic. I understand that Gaga’s statement is offensive, and it’s hard to see someone in the limelight put their foot in their mouth (in our mouths?) like that. But she’s not bad. And I was not bad. I was just a little sheltered. Thankfully, no one interviewed me on TV when I was 27.
“So I don’t think it has to be fueled by sexism. Sometimes it’s just created by the limitations of our own imagination and how small our experiences have really been.”
Ok, I just realized sexism is even a more sensitive subject than bisexuality here. Sexism is not a violent expression of one’s personality, it is a mostly unconscious, mildly and subtly expressed worldview that guides and drives the allocation of indifference more than emotion. Of course sexism limits one’s imagination and experiences, like all other forms of cultural attitudes and (conscious and unconscious) beliefs.
“Admittedly, the entrenched sexism of our society does play a role in all of that. Women who might otherwise enjoy relationships with women might be discouraged from doing so by growing up drenched in the patriarchy and therefore having no framework for what a relationship with a woman would be like. And if you don’t have that framework you might say something silly or hurtful like Gaga said. ”
Exactly. And it’s hurtful for herself first and foremost.
“People cannot help who they love. Seriously”.
Great, then I guess I should be happy for women who stay in abusive relationships, because, poor girls, they cannot help who they love… their partners beat them and they spend time in hospitals, but you know what, this must mean they’re really and profoundly in love, so what do I know… how can I even mention internalized sexism, that’s so unromantic!!
“I was just clouded by my experience. I didn’t, like, try not to fall in love with my partner because she is a woman. I relished it. It rocked my world. It was just a big surprise”.
But first you said that you could not imagine your life with a woman. What I’m saying is, this is not just you, this is the vast majority of women. When phenomena are so widespread, we can’t think in terms of individual cases, because if we do, if all individual cases are different, what’s the point of politics and activism?
“If that hypothetical bisexual in #3 never does fall in love with a woman, if it is always a man, it’s probably not because she is trying to reject the possibility of finding love with a woman because she is sexist. Who would do that? Who would look love in the face and say “no! you are not a man! We can have sex but I refuse to love you!” ”
Apparently billions of women everywhere in the world (including possibly Lady Gaga)? Where do you think are the gay couples in most countries in the world where homosexuality is an offense punishable by the death penalty and other nice treatments? Surely you don’t think there are no gay couples in such countries because “individual cases” simply don’t fall in love with other people of the same sex? Can’t you see something bigger at play here? Have you ever heard of “cognitive dissonance” and how people come to hate what they cannot possibly achieve (it’s called sour grapes)? And how, when they realize something is impossible to change, they start regarding that something as “right and desirable”? Or do you think that “developed countries” are completely immune from such dynamics? I’m not talking about individual cases, I’m talking about the wider society.
“Instead, it’s probably she is not in love with a woman. And that’s okay, right? That’s not something she can help and it’s not something she should be ashamed of.”
Of course no one’s going to punish her for that. As I said, the worst is for her, she already punishes herself enough. If I were attracted to men and I wanted to have sex with men, I would worry about myself if I did not want a relationship with men. I would worry a lot about myself if I were unable to build a relationship with someone I’m attracted to and have sex with, just because of their gender. This sounds like sexism to me. I always try to analyze my feelings and understand if I what I really want is determined by social influence or by personal preference, and I worry when I yield to social influence and sacrifice personal preference.
I am sorry, I didn’t make it through the whole conversation so in case this has been mentioned, I apologize for pointing it out again:
I am kind of troubled by some of the assumptions being made here. Lady Gaga says one sentence in an interview. One sentence. That sentence is:
“And it wasn’t until I found A GUY who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love” [emphasis mine]
Here the word “guy” is clearly singular, indicating she is referring to either her current or perhaps a past relationship – one relationship, one time she fell in love (presumeably the only time she fell in love?).
Taking this to mean “I generally toy around with lesbians until I find men who are better than lesbians are” or “I can only fall in love with men and never with women” is stretching her original remark relatviely thin. And if you ask me, chosing to interpret her words that way does betray a certain biphobic bias. Not Lady Gaga’s sexuality is sexist (whatever that may mean) but your interpretation of it is all kinds of troubling.
On an additional note, as many people have already pointed out: no one identifying as bisexual is obliged to be a 3 on the Kinsey scale and date men and women (or be attracted to men and women) in a ratio of 50:50. The label bisexual includes a whole spectrum of the kinsey scale, possibly ranging from 1.1 to 5.9. And it is not our job to judge whether anyone chosing to adopt the label bisexual is “bisexual enough” or analyse the way society plays into someone’s sexuality, ESPECIALLY when you don’t even know them and are judging them by one sentence in an interview. One sentence.
(and i know the judging/having an opinion can be tempting, it still doesn’t make it right)
And one last remark to sum it all up: it is of course Lady Gaga’s right to only fall in love (have fallen in love) with men and call herself bisexual, I was just pointing out how that was not even what she said.
Thank you liv. A few people have indeed pointed that out in this discussion but this was particularly well put. And besides,I’m don’t think it can really be said enough.
“And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love.”
Sigh.
I was attempting to summon some kind of commentary on this story but couldn’t come up with anything worth saying, i think “Sigh” probs sums it up though
No prob! I gots the logorrhea covered today. *sigh* :)
That quote has caused many feels, none of which are good. =(
This sounds like clear proof that she prefers men. Maybe a form of sexist bisexuality :P as in, I like people who come on to me strong, but if I am to fall in love they must be men.
I am so over Gaga. I know this turned into a mess that last time she reared her head on AS but really? I get she is inspiring to some, but how long is it going to be until fame or being an artist isn’t seen as some kind of excuse for horrible behavior?
My favorite (and by that I mean most despised quote)
GAGA: “And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love.”
But Gaga, did you fall in love with a lesbi.. ah no. That’s not what you meant.
I suppose what was meant was “I really LOVED everything about the way a woman did THIS thing but WHEW thank goodness I found a guy who did it the same way because.. umm No.
Miley Cyrus? Really? Gosh she’s just young and a child star and whatever. Psst, a list of privileges isn’t a great defense of blunt and gross cultural appropriation. Ugh.
If I’m remembering correctly (I could be wrong here) she’s only ever claimed to care for women sexually while enjoying men romantically and sexually. I can understand her comment being troubling if she in any way claimed that it was uniform throughout the community but since shes saying that this was true for her personal experience I don’t see the issue. All I gathered is that she likes the way women in lesbian bars came on to her but she didn’t want any relationship with them. Am I missing something?
Note: I’m not being a jerk here, I’m genuinely wondering how you came to this conclusion:
“But Gaga, did you fall in love with a lesbi.. ah no. That’s not what you meant.I suppose what was meant was “I really LOVED everything about the way a woman did THIS thing but WHEW thank goodness I found a guy who did it the same way because.. umm No.”
from her comment.
I don’t think you are being a jerk. I would hope you don’t think I am. We can argue about this ALL day, and I still wouldn’t consider anyone a jerk. I mean, people have opinon’s and ideas and stuff.
I could ask how you didn’t come to the above conclusion, as you have asked that I have. I would suspect that both our answers would end up being based mostly on previous articles, interviews and Gag’s statements.
You said above you recall other stuff which would make this less of an issue, and I recall her similarly pulling problematic stuff which makes me think it is. :) We are both probably going to argue this on preconceived ideas and history. Which blows. But it is how we see the world.
My main complaint is that the great majority of defenses of her are based not in her actions, but her fame. :P
“I don’t think you are being a jerk. I would hope you don’t think I am. We can argue about this ALL day, and I still wouldn’t consider anyone a jerk. I mean, people have opinon’s and ideas and stuff.”
god i love auto commenters. specifically shelby, right now. why isn’t the whole internet like this?
I know. This whole comment section is making me really happy right now.
Gaga not so much.
“I can understand her comment being troubling if she in any way claimed that it was uniform throughout the community but since shes saying that this was true for her personal experience I don’t see the issue.”
Do you really think the average viewer, especially the average straight viewer, is going to take away from that “Oh, she’s just talking about her own experiences” and not misinterpret that to the community as a whole.
Why would I hold her accountable for anyone misinterpreting her?
If she claimed to be a bisexual representative I’d side eye her for not making sure to be as clear as possible but she isn’t and never claimed to be.
She is one of the most high-profile bisexual celebrities on the planet so that does make her a “representative” whether she realizes it or not. And thus she should be as clear as possible about what she really means she says things like that.
Moreover this a woman who has practically made a career out of being a LGBT crusader so I do hold her a little bit more accountable than I would the average person.
@Vanessa – This is a bit off-topic, but I think the Autostraddle site operators’ change some months back to only have registered folks comment was a big help with regards to that.
On-topic, I agree with a lot of what Shelby said. I hopped off of the Lady Gaga train a while ago. My reaction to this is pretty much “Sigh” as well.
the way I see it, it’s a sexist quote
Differing sexual and romantic orientations are only sexist by logic that says monosexuality is inherently sexist.
I LOVE Lady Gaga! So what, maybe the kinds of girls she is into come on really strong. Maybe she just attracts those types of girls. We all know, and Im sure she knows too, that not ALL lesbians come on strong, but maybe she just happened to run across a WAY BUNCH of them. Also, maybe she is the kind of girl who is a “sometimes” girl and likes to mess around with lesbians but really and truly likes guys better. Also, nothing wrong with that as long as the lesbian consents to it and wants to have sexy time etc. girl’s DO oftentimes have very different ways of doing things than guys so maybe she wants a guy who hasn’t grown up being put into a gendered box and has some feminine characteristics too. For telling people not to judge, everyone sure judges Gaga.
Oh I tell folks to judge all the time. It’s what we do as humans. Someone kills a dog? I judge that to be horrible.
Someone pets a kitten? I judge that to be sweet. (Unless their hands are sticky or something that would inconvenience the kitten. You never know.)
I find it interesting that a persons actions are often “Judged” as more “ok” when they are able to pay for their transgressions with fame or artistic freedom. While artistic freedom is a better way to go, specifically when that freedom is trying to say something, Lady Gaga here is just being foul. Anyone speaking these words, or presenting as such, should be “judged” or appraised the same way.
Yet in this culture someone who makes people sing a fun song, or who manages to coach more students to touchdowns, or who acts in movies really well, is somehow granted an allowance of racists, sexist, or classist bullshit that they can spend on pulling crap like the above. This kind of language wouldn’t be favored by a stranger, and I don’t think any number of songs / touchdowns / movies, excuse a person. If she wasn’t Gaga, woudl we even be having this discussion? If Gaga had pulled the VMA performance that Miley did… would that somehow NOT be cultural Appropriation? Has she earned that learn of indulgences?
Also, a train of “Maybe she just / Maybe she just / Maybe she is / Maybe she wants..” is a pretty long list of suppositions used to support a favorable opinion of a person that seems to have little drive beyond “She is cool and makes fun music.” Going by her words, and her actions, within this interview and others I do judge her. Do I think she is awful person and should be punished?
Nope, of course not.
Maybe she is a decent musician? Yup, I think she’s good.
Maybe she started a foundation to help LGBT folks. Yup.
Maybe she is an ally? Nope.
Maybe she represents bisexuals in a decent light? Nope.
Maybe she is desperate for a soundbite and something that will generate debate and spin her name into the net a couple million times as advertising? Hmm Maybe?
It kinda makes me uncomfortable that people apparently expect Lady Gaga – a rich, white, cis woman – to represent the entire bisexual community. I mean, bisexuals are not monolithic, on the contrary they are incredibly diverse – even in terms of how they experience desire. And obviously some bisexuals are racist, cisexist, body shaming, etc. assholes who deserve to be called out on their bullshit! But splitting hairs whether or not she singlehandedly gives every bisexual individual a bad name is a waste of time. And so is policing of her attraction towards women vs. man. The later is not up for our debate anyways and we can not change anything about her feelings towards people.
Also I am getting tired of the argument of “being used” by bisexual women. Like, aren’t lesbian women the subject in the context of their own desires? Don’t they ever participate in casual sex with no strings attached? Seriously, those things are not label specific.
*men
That rich cis white woman is the only person people care is bisexual. She is the only one that will get a single blip related to her position as a bisexual because of those privileges.
Trans women are crazy diverse. But right now, Laverne Cox pretty represents us, whether we like it or not (I happen to love it but thats beside the point). Why? Because representation is a function of visibility. And representation, especially representation that is acknowledged. Gaga is well aware and has capitalized on her association with the LGBT community. So I do expect her to try harder.
Is that fair? Probably not.
I was reading a statement from Laverne Cox on the exact same matter – about how much she feels the pressure to represent the trans* community all the time, everywhere she goes, not being allowed to ever misstep. Is it really what we want to do to women? Burden even more load on their shoulders?
However, I agree that representation is a function of visibility but I still don’t think that one person alone can represent the entirety of bi-communities (worldwide). Also I don’t see the benefit in limitation when we can have all the famous pluri folks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_bisexual_people
Needs Gaga to try harder? Yes. On not being a horrible person overall.
While I agree that Lady Gaga might need to try harder, I am not really sure what you mean by “portraying bisexuality in a decent light”?
I find this kind of tricky, because yes there are hurtful prejudices against bisexuality. Yes it is wrong that they exist. But does that make it Lady Gaga’s job to be a “good” bisexual and be attracted to and fall in love with men and women in a 50:50 ratio? Isn’t that norming her identity in a way we would like it to be? (i.e. bisexual = 3 on the kinsey scale. sorry about the rest of you folks, you need new labels, this whole diversity is too confusing?).
I agree she has responsibility and maybe yes, she should have added a disclaimer about the diversity of bisexuality. Maybe she should have phrased her statement differently, less open to the “I toy with women till the right man comes along” interpretation. Maybe she was looking for attention. All valid criticisms. But the notion of “decent bisexuality” troubles me.
@Shelby: I am sorry, I just read your comments down below (which render my comment above kinda uneccessary).
I should probably in the future scroll before I reply, but sometimes I just cannot keep my feelings bottled up any longer.
“Also, maybe she is the kind of girl who is a “sometimes” girl and likes to mess around with lesbians but really and truly likes guys better. Also, nothing wrong with that as long as the lesbian consents to it and wants to have sexy time etc. ”
Well, as judgemental as this is probably going to sound to you, I don’t respect these kinds of women. Who is to say she was upfront with these women that she is just all about sex with them and nothing else? You are a better person than I am for giving her the benefit of the doubt that these women are consenting to being used by her knowing she prefers men better. We have all heard plenty of stories about bisexuals on this site and elsewhere who do that “women are for fun sexytimes but not serious relationships” bullshit and some lesbians use it as an excuse to write off ALL bisexuals as a waste of time because they will never truly love us anyway. Having the most high-profile popstar on the planet get on national television and basically perpetuate this stereotype doesn’t help things IMO.
Unless you’ve slept with Lady Gaga, you don’t know that she’s a user, either. So I feel like maybe this isn’t a super relevant part of this discussion?
Ria is giving her the benefit of the doubt that these women know what they are signing up for. I’m taking the devil’s advocate position that we don’t.
I still stand by what I said. Gaga is the most high-profile popstar in the world and one of the most high profile bisexuals period. She’s also positioned herself as some LGBT crusader of justice and spokesperson throughout her career so when she says things that I find problematic I’m going to judge her for it a bit more harshly than I would others. And I personally find the statement,“And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love.”, problematic. Sorry, that’s just me. Like it or not she has to be clear about what she says by virtue of her position. Is that fair? Maybe not but that’s the position any and all celebs put themselves in due to their fame.
I wish I could edit my own posts.
What I would like to add is that I have no problem with her having a boyfriend it is the wording of that sentence that doesn’t sound right to me.
Being sexually but not emotionally attracted to a gender and both sexually and emotionally to another is not “bullshit bisexuals do”, it’s who some of them are. Calling it bullshit and saying that you don’t respect them doesn’t “make you sound judgemental”, it shows that you’re bigoted.
Just like there are way way more heterosexuals than homosexuals, there are more bisexuals who are more into another gender than their own. If you were to put it as a color-graded scale it’d make sense and give the most regular one.
There are people who won’t be able to fall in love with you because of your gender presentation or your personality or the way you naturally behave in relationships or your genitals or the way you talk or a million other factors, and being ok with all of those reasons but going into hate-mode for that one reason makes you biphobic, period.
Also I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t call a lesbian having casual sex “using people” and assume that she’s deceiving the other into believing it’ll lead to a serious relationship.
“Also I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t call a lesbian having casual sex “using people” and assume that she’s deceiving the other into believing it’ll lead to a serious relationship.”
Actually I would if that’s what they were doing. That goes for straight women and men as well.
And for the record I didn’t say that is was something ALL bisexuals do because I don’t believe that. I’m saying it is an excuse some lesbians use to excuse bisexuals and we all know that is true so lets not pretend that doesn’t happen. And if you ctually go back and read all of the posts I have made on this article I am saying that because of the position Gaga is she is, fairly or unfairly, seen as a representative of our community and some people are going to misinterpret what she is saying. That is the nature of being as high profile as she is.
“Actually I would if that’s what they were doing.”
Yes – *if that’s what they were doing*. You would only say so if you know that’s the case and give them the benefit of the doubt otherwise, but only as long as they’re straight or gay.
And yeah, it’s true that some bisexuals pull that shit on women, just like some lesbians and straight men pull that shit on women, and some gay/bi guys and bi/straight women pull that shit on men. Assholery spans the whole spectrum, so why the focus on the sexuality when it’s about bisexuals?
Also Gaga can’t be held accountable for potential dumb-dumbs taking her “I” statements and assuming she’s talking about a whole community. She can’t be expected to have the mind to snap right out of the lively discussion she’s having and make a PSA to the camera on the spur of the moment.
I mean, when e.g. an actress is saying in an interview that she loves the period show she’s working on because she gets to wear all of those beautiful dresses, no one ever cries that she’s hurting the feminist cause because she didn’t make a laius about how she’s just personally into typical femme stuff and not all women are into it and that’s ok if they’re not we shouldn’t assume they all are etc etc.
” Also, maybe she is the kind of girl who is a “sometimes” girl and likes to mess around with lesbians but really and truly likes guys better. ”
Thats great and all, but this is also the basis for so many stereotypes about bi women. The whole rigamarole about how we are just waiting for the right man to come allong as women who sleep with women comes out of comments about sometimes girls and statements like gaga’s about how she only fell in love when the atention came from a man. If that is her experince and her pattern of attraction thats great and more power to her. But she claims to be a community member and Ally AND she is in the media claiming ot be a spokkesperson, so with that comes more responsibility to speak about thse issues in a more intentional manner.
“And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love.”
I feel like Lea Delaria hit her this one time.
I feel like this is a precursor to some horrible duet called Burqa Twerq. And then Gaga will turn around and claim it’s a political song on how African Muslim girls are undergoing genital mutilation.
Oh god no. *shivers*
I wouldn’t be surprised AT ALL if this happened.
Agreed. I only expect the worst from her.
I just scared my cat because I laughed so hard. I also pray that this never happens, buy see how it easily could.
Burqa-Twerk…
I shudder to think of this happening. More so, the defenses of it which would rain down because… fame.
COMMENT AWARD
and her fans will be like “YASSS, GAGA. YOU’RE SO INSPIRING”
“BUT OMIGOD NOBODY ELSE HAS EVER TALKED ABOUT GENITAL MUTILATION EVAAAAARRRRRRRRR SHE’S A REVOLUTIONARY”
Just to be clear, this woman has done plenty of things that I’d like to pop her in the mouth for and I will call her out for every one but I really don’t like how I see so many lesbians, gay men and straight people policing her sexuality. First they were saying how they didn’t “believe” that she likes women now (after being consistent with her “I only like women sexually” stance) she’s not the right kind of bisexual. Apparently her preference for men shines a bad light on all other bisexual women.
I wouldn’t care at all about how her pattern of attraction worked if she didn’t take the stance of an LGBT Ally and sometimes spokeswoman in the media.
She said me, my, I, all throughout that segment. I personally don’t understand how anyone could take it as anything other than her personal preferences. That being said, I don’t hold her or anyone else responsible for anyone’s misinterpretation of their words. That’s just not something I can roll with. If she’s asked to clarify her statement and she says some ridiculous/oppressive bull then I will be in the same boat as everyone else, shaking my head in shame at her. Until then I have no issue with this situation.
It’s cool if other’s do have a problem with it since everyone has different standards and all but I’ll place any stereotyping blame on anyone dense enough to take one person’s preference as a uniform standard for everyone in a community.
Wait. I reread this, thought about it for a bit and I realized that it doesn’t make any sense to me. You’re saying that if she was a nobody in an unknown part of the world, her preference for men wouldn’t matter to you but since she’s a celebrity and has shown support to the LGBT community her preference for men is problematic because it feeds in to a stereotype? I’m probably just not understanding what you mean. I’d appreciate it if you elaborated on that point so I could understand you better.
If this were a television show and the writers only displayed this kind of bisexual woman I could 100% understand the issue. Not all bisexual women prefer men and the heteronormative world needs to get it in their heads that penises are not magical or special. Plenty of bisexual women are the opposite and only care for men sexually (I’m dating one and she’s amazing)and on a show/book/etc. or they like both equally it is important to show that. But since this isn’t a show and it is someone’s real life I can’t get mad at her preference playing into a stereotype because that happens sometimes.
“penises are not magical”
– Ancient wisdom.
I have no problem with her liking men. If ind the quote about not being able to fall in love until a man came along to be problematic and winceworthy because it reads like a restatement of a cultural trope that hurts me and other bisexual women.
Because this culture puts so much value in celebrity, the words of a celeb, even about their personal preferences, take on weight. Especially because Gaga is so active in LGBTQ issues, her words reflect on how people see the community. I mean, she is like one of the most high profile bi women in the world right now. Her way of doing bi is not wrong or bad; but in talking about it she said a problematic and stereotype reinforcing thing.
Thank you – I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head wrt what’s bothering me about this whole situation. Folks, there’s no “right” way to be bisexual! I’m not a better queer than a bi lady who marries a dude because I married a lady! I see this attitude all the time, and it irks me.
I’m no Gaga apologist (I’m over her in a big way) but criticism of her seems intertwined with this thread of queer hierarchy and I think we can do better.
Not saying that her way of being queer is wrong. For me, I just cant let go of my frustration at how unconsidered comments lead to me and my queerness being tarred with the same brush as Gaga. it is really hard to brush this off when I have been confronted repeatedly in my life by the opinion that as a queer lady I will only be fulfilled/happy/satisifed with men. Its just that, as a famous person, her words hold more cultural weight, even though she make sunconsidered statements and has taken part in culturally appropriateve behavior in the name of art.
“Its just that, as a famous person, her words hold more cultural weight,”
Yes, This is what I am trying to get at. Gaga is THE loudest LGBT champion within the music industry and thus she is fairly or unfairly seen as our crusader a lot of the time. When she speaks people listen. And that includes straight people who again fairly or unfairly get their education about queer people from popstars like her. I really wish they would read a book instead but what can do you. That’s just the nature of things. That is why I hold Gaga more accountable than I do others, because she willingly put herself in this position so expect her to be a bit more cautious with her words. And that’s not just in regard to this article but other statements she’s made over her career that have nothing to do with her sexuality at all.
I think the part of this that gives me pause is that there is necessarily anything bad about being “tarred with Lady Gaga’s brush.”
Look, I’m not that kind of bisexual either! But I guarantee you there are Autostraddle readers that are. And when you say “Ugh, we’re not all like THAT!” some of those people might think, “Well, shit, I am one of those bisexuals.” As I’ve said, I’m not worried about Lady Gaga’s feels here!
Dan Savage is also pretty lout. Does anybody blame Dan Savage on ruining the reputation of every gay man? Does anybody expect him to represent the entirety of gay communities? Not that I know of. Why the double standard?
When I first read this allI could do was sigh because yet again someone who claims to represent me and other bisexual women is making statements that enforce the misogynist beliefs about bisexual women that pervade the cultural narrative. Then I thought about it me and I felt pissed because this sort of unconsidered comment in the media is something that makes me actively less safe being openly bisexual. Don’t we all need the magic penis to really be fulfilled and in love? I am so sick of hearing that in any form.
Gaga sticks in my craw specifically because she does work in the LGBTQ community and claims to be a voice for us and our experience.
The whole “women can have sex with women for fun but if they want love they need a MAN” trope that keeps getting shackled onto bisexuality makes me mad. I honestly think it made it harder for me to realize that I’m gay, because for a long time the missing link for me was that I didn’t believe it was possible for a woman to fall in love with me. The idea that kissing girls is something girls just do for fun and doesn’t mean anything was REALLY not helpful.
That said… “I find lesbians to be way more daring than straight men when it comes to coming on to you” ??? I’m laughing so hard right now. I WISH. I’m such a coward, it’s not even funny.
Because men are SUCH SHRINKING VIOLETS when it comes to hitting on ladies amirite
I’m super late to the comments, but can someone point me in the direction of these lesbians that come on really strong?? I don’t think they are in my town :(
I feel like I should clarify that I don’t think Lady Gaga’s sexuality is any less legitimate than mine. The problem, as it so often is, is the whole cultural context surrounding this particular incident. Where are the super famous bisexual ladies talking about, oh I don’t know, that one time they kissed a boy when they were drunk and hope their girlfriend is cool with that?
That’s a valid point, I think. The wider cultural expectations are something I sometimes forget about because I spend so much time in Queertown and therefore most of the biphobia I see is the NOPE NOT GAY ENOUGH type. It was definitely a problem for me when I was younger!
That being said, I think we need to be more thoughtful within the queer community about how we talk about bisexuality not for Lady Gaga’s sake, but for the sake of 15-year-old Janie Brown who loves her boyfriend and has unexpected feelings for her best friend and is reading AS for the first time today. I want her to know she’s welcome here, too.
On behalf of all the Janies, I want to give you a big hug for this thread. <3
But kissing girls IS fun. And so is loving them ;)
I am curious about the Miley issue, above someone said that Gaga doesn’t know what cultural appropriation was and so that removed any blame of her support of that whole mess. I ask this:
IF GAGA had performed the EXACT same set on the VMA’s, would their be some defense of her here, when Mileys actions were patently pathetic. And can we say that defense isn’t based on anything than personal preference for someone based on not there actions, but the entertainment they provide?
If I can’t assign any meaning to Gaga’s supposed allyship how can we justify a handwaving of her knowledge of Mileys garbage, or honestly even accept it even if it was? A person on the street who doesn’t know what cultural appropriation is, may also think it was just ‘fun’. Neither of them are any more correct, so why do we write these scripts for this person simply because she is famous.
Her bisexuality or how she evokes that is in fact, not my business. Red she said, makes a good point. Do I think her version of it is damaging and dangerous to bisexual acceptance?
Yes.
Is that her intention, or fault? Not entirely, but when you are saying shit all day and someone suddenly hands you a giant bullhorn in times square, I would probably start considering the scope of who may hear me. She IS disproportionately able to influence the straight world with those ideas, and that as a “self-identified” ally she should have a little more care with her bullshit. But the way she wants to be bi, as crappy and disrespectful as I find it to lesbians, is her call. And I won’t argue that.
Allies, and people trying to be allies, will find themselves receiving a greater portion of anger and call outs than the non-aware person. Which sucks really for allies because they are trying. They really are. But you know what else they are doing that the unaware jackasses of the world aren’t?
They are listening, they are aware and trying.
And you either do that, and accept that your actions as an ally are not yours to define as effective, but the community (any community) that you are allied to, has that right.
Some folks in the community see her actions as acceptable, as others in this threat had stated. And they are right in their view. I say she isn’t, and that her motivations are more capitalist than queer and always have been.
But both myself and those that oppose this view are going on what we see, and we see the same person differently. We believe we have some idea of her motivations and judge those through her actions and create an hero or heretic is we see fit. (Ooo Heretic! Not the best choice but I was rolling for alliteration!)
I hate attacking things that make me feel good. But I have to. Because they can do better. Like I hope I can.
The Miley part was just one big eye roll for me. i can’t say I am surprised as Gaga is not known for her nuanced understanding of cultural power dynamics.
My comment above really was not meant to be a defense of the problematic parts of Miley’s VMA performance, and my statement about Gaga not understanding what cultural appropriation is was meant to convey that I think that she is an idiot when it comes to racial politics.
The majority of the criticism of the VMA performance that I’ve seen on mass media focuses on how sexual it was. Yes there was A LOT wrong with Miley’s performance (I am not defending the cultural appropriation), but that does not mean that it is ok to say that she is not allowed to be a sexual young woman because she used to be on Disney. I think Gaga was talking about how Miley should be allowed to stop being Hannah Montana if she wants to and I wholeheartedly agree with that. Yes I thought that the sexual part was a bit over the top, but I’ve never had to figure out who I am in a fishbowl.
I definitely agree with Gaga not being clued in when it comes to radical politics. :)
*Ok ok that was cheap, but I do understand what you mean*
I think this is a case where I live in a fishbowl too, I see things on the level of cultural appropriation because well, I do. And I read about it, and think about it, because I have had the position to do so. I can believe that Gaga is reacting the the more obvious (and partiarchal supported) criticism of her sexuality. Yay for confirmation bias, in that I expect her to respond how I would, when she hasn’t had the same pressure of oppression that could inform her. I touch on this in yet another Shelby MEGA comment below. :P
It kind of pisses me off how many people here are debating whether or not Lady Gaga is an ally and how good of an ally she is, because the very definition of the word “ally” is “supporting a community that you’re not a part of” and guess what, bisexuals indeed aren’t “allies” because they’re PART OF THE COMMUNITY THEMSELVES. Yes that’s what the B stands for, and no it isn’t silent.
IDGAF about Gaga and she said and did a lot of crap when it comes to people of color and trans* folks and other groups she’s not a part of, but speaking candidly about her sexuality by sticking to “I” statements and personal anecdotes is not one of them.
As someone else said upthread there’s a lot of gay guys and lesbians saying BS in the media, and while they’re (justifiably) called out on it it is always about how they’re assholes as individuals, and no one ever picks up the torches and pitchforks to bitch about how they’re misrepresenting the community.
Because honestly, let’s stop pretending that the issue here is Gaga herself or this specific comment, the issue is gay people not liking being reminded that bisexuals are linked to them in any way and indeed bisexual and not just gay peeps with a fancy label.
I define an ally as someone who is working to support and advance a community. Whether they are IN that community or not. There are gay folks, bi folks, trans folks and lesbians who are definitely NOT allies despite being in the community. No one get a free pass.
I am not saying she isn’t part of the community. At all. I know some may, which is bullshit, Bisexuals suffer from erasure in a million ways, and possibly its worse than the Trans erasure because like it or not, trans folks have physical or visual cues of their existence and are more “permanently” considered than Bisexual folks. I personally think we bisexuals are damaged the greatest by this idea that ambiguity is weakness and indecision.
Also : furthering bisexual acceptance =/= pretending that the bisexuals who seem to fit some stereotypes at first glance don’t exist and silencing them.
I don’t see anyone asking butch lesbians to hide and keep quiet and make grand speeches about how not all lesbians are like them everytime they dare to show their face in public because they’re hurting the gay movement by reinforcing damaging stereotypes. I don’t see anyone crapping on kd lang or Ellen Degeneres or Rachel Maddow for being famous butch lesbians in the public eye who dare not to speak about femmes everytime their sexuality comes up.
What I see is femmes who work on pulling themselves up and showing the world they exist without putting butches down in the process, and actually THEY are the ones who have the power to dispel those damaging stereotypes by saying to the world “see, we’re not all like that, but we love our butch sisters and there’s nothing wrong with them either!”
You can’t expect and demand hetero-leaning bis to dispel the myth that they’re all like them, just like you can’t expect and demand butches to cure femme invisibility. Most people value hearsay way less than seeing something first-hand, that’s just how it works.
If people value personal experience over hearsay, how is direct commentary by Gaga not personal experience? They see this person speaking. Just because they are standing in the studio doesnt change the directness of the communication.
If we, as those people being affected by this, don’t expect and demand that we dispel the myth and push the Het/Cis world to understand who is going to do it?
**As an aside Hetcis sounds like Skeksis. Wee!**
Actually it does happen that butch lesbians are getting criticized, accused of seeking “male privilege”, called “traitors” to feminism and femininity in general, blamed for reinforcing hetero-patriarchal structures (esp. when in butch/femme relationships), avoided for being “visible”, etc. – by other queer women.
There a cultural weight of misogyny and assumption about female sexuality as being centered around and fulfilled by penis. Gaga’s personal anecdote fits that cultural norm. That cultural norm is problematic and has caused me a lot of harm as a bisexual woman trying to navigate the US culture. I think I reacted so strongly because of that personal history. I can see how my comments came across as judgmental of her sexuality, and I am sorry for that.
I will say again, i don’t care who she fucks or how she fucks. more power to her, esp as she states that her love life and relationships make her happy.
I don’t like her capitalizing on the struggles of the LGBTQ community or appropriating those of others.
OMG OMG! EVERYBODY! I was wrong!
No, forrealz. Please hear me out.
Okies. Just dawned on me, that *I* am pretty much the opposite of Gaga. I am Bisexual, so it’s possible that sex with a guy could happen, BUT I would NEVER date or love a dude. So.. pot kettle yadda yadda.
Does this make me an evil Bisexual as Gaga is being treated? No. She isn’t. That arguement was flawed if we hold to respect for personal choices. So I can only realize that her choices are as valid and non-evil as mine. (Nothing like enlightened self interest,right.) Anyway…
Actually I never thought her personal choices are evil or even wrong but I am working through this. :) Bear with me.
(BEARS ACAMP!)
So, her personal choices or way that she loves is absolutely ok. Has to be, and is. So what’s the issue? In this happy go lucky fucked up world of misogyny it is the assumption that a woman can ONLY find happiness IF she loves a man. This has to be marked and shown as NOT the constant assumption.
SO, if I were on TV and for SOME reason I was discussing my orientation and it would go something like this.
“I’ve taken a few dips in the guy pond. I’ve said that….And it wasn’t until I found a woman who could come on to me as strong as a guy that I fell in love.”
BUT!!!! because I have lived the oppression of both bi and trans I would continue…
“But it is a pain when folks think I should be with a guy because I am female, because you know Bisexual isn’t just one thing.”
Is it conceited to think I would say that. No. I have said that. I try to constantly position and watch myself *everytime* I talk about my orientation or experience. Why? Because it’s important. No I am not a saint, but I am aware because I have to be more aware of how I am seen because I am every trans or bisexual person that some stranger has never met.
Because when I am talking about myself I know that my words move through every trans female, or bisexual woman out there, I know that because I have felt these unfair comparisons to others, either in media or online.. whatever.
Here’s the part we can fight about. I don’t think Gags has, or ever will feel that.
Lady Gaga appears to live in a media fueled bubble of privilege, I now think that what this was a sin of omission based on privilege of never having dealt with the systemic oppression that Bisexual folks deal with all the time.
Gaga’s position as a rich, white, and media personality means she doesn’t HAVE to remember to clear things things up, when she is the person who should more than anyone. So, in this I will settle on seeing her as a victim of her privilege, and she doesn’t see it.
But then I could argue, that you are still *doing it wrong* because you only talk about attraction to people of binary genders, falling into the stereotype of “bi=two=man/woman” => “therefore bisexuals absolutely must hate gender queer folks”.
See, how that would be just another level of misrepresentation of bisexuals as a whole? – “Because we’re not all ‘like that’… blah… let’s throw those who are ‘like that’ under the bus…”
Interestingly nobody even mentioned how Gaga’s ignorance of non-binary genders is problematic for bisexuals and/or GQs, etc. It is in fact all about “she loves men” and about making her responsible for everything bad that happens to bisexuals. Which she is not?!
Sure I am. Doing it wrong I mean, although I do mention all of those things in practice, but didn’t type it out here. However that omission is my point entirely. Me not mentioning that ina public manner is wrong, and while I don’t think a list has to be thrown out I do like saying. “Male, female, transmale, transfemale, genderqueer, genderfluid or asexual are all valid and not all that are valid.” Its a mouthfull but its fun to fire out quickly for the specific purpose of making people stammer and say “Wait.. what list?”
The idea is to present your position as located within a spectrum without ignoring that spectrum, or presenting your section as the invisible norm. Especially if that norm is patriarchal.
The argument that since we can’t do something perfectly or completely meaning we shouldn’t be doing it all is flawed. We try better, I just don’t see Gaga trying. She is profiting from it. The word bisexual is the sole reason this entire interview happened. Trading on that means you have a responsibility to it.
My annoyance is still that I think Gaga’s lack of any reflection or clarification is a product of her privilege. I have seen what the GQ erasure does and so, if I had to re-write my above statement I would damn well be sure to change it. :)
No one is saying she is responsible for ALL things that happens to bisexuals. But I would say she has a hell of a lot more influence over views and opinions of them than you are I. (Unless you are secretly Rhianna or something)
My point has nothing to do with who she loves or has sex with. She IS a person who, because of her privilege, can present her personal choices with the freedom on not having to position herself because she has NO oppression based on those choices.
If she felt the harm of making blanket statements, she might speak like an actual activist, and not a media manipulator looking to sell albums. Please be successful in your art, but you use a status to gain notice you have a responsibility to it, or should.
I don’t have the freedom to just run off at the mouth in public about this sort of thing without considering how it could be seen (although I do run off at the mouth a lot, I mean look at this thread!) because like I said, MY actions precipitate across my campus where I am THE transwoman there. I get that. Is it fair that I have to think and understand I am a possibly unwilling representative? Nope.
But Gaga who has made Millions and a great part of that by pandering and advertising through the LGBT communities, should possibly figure out that anytime she wanders onto a show she IS representing people, whether she likes it or not. And not liking it, but dealing with it and being intelligent about her communication is what helping the community looks like. THATS being an ally.
She isn’t burning Bisexuals to death with this but she could do better. We all could as you noted. I would never argue against trying.
“The argument that since we can’t do something perfectly or completely meaning we shouldn’t be doing it all is flawed.”
But I never said this? Because yes, she, we, everybody needs to do better!
However, I agree that Gaga is not even trying. And I am by no means an expert on her but I never considered her an “activist”. Like, what is her little organization even doing for lgbt+ kids – except for collecting money and being an accessory to her image? Further with all the other crappy things she ever done and said, I find her non-representation of bi folks in it’s entirety kinda the least offensive thing? She just has so many things, she needs to evolve on. But then again, Gaga only cares about all things Gaga.
And yes, she profits off from it. And I hate it. And she profits the most by being dramatic and scandalous, so I don’t know if she really is oblivious to everything (but being genuinely ignorant or blind to own privilege is never an excuse anyway) or if she just gets off on offending everybody?
Therefore I can’t get on the train of making her solely responsible for bi representation. Like, Gillian Anderson is still there (and I have lots of feelings about Scully), as well as Alan Cumming who is even the face of the current “I am visible” campaign, Evan Rachel Wood Bisexual, Deborah Anne Dyer a.k.a. Skin (“Skunk Anansie”, for the cool queer 90s kids reference), … You know, people much more awesome than Gaga.
However, I see your point and I wholeheartedly agree:
“The idea is to present your position as located within a spectrum without ignoring that spectrum, or presenting your section as the invisible norm. Especially if that norm is patriarchal.”
The thing though: female celebrities do/did this exact thing. But those statements are either ignored or the women are bashed anyway. Remember Lucy Lui speaking about same-gender attraction? No? But she did. And remember Cynthia Nixon being slammed around for “choosing to be a lesbian”? So.
But girl, was it really necessary to tell the world the truth about me really, truly being Rhianna? Because of cause I am her! Like, totally! :D
Shelby, you know I love and respect you, but I have to say: isn’t it nice that YOU get the chance to backtrack and correct your words? “Oops, I forgot to mention that point!” Why are so many people here quick to lambast Gaga when she doesn’t have the same chance to correct herself or backtrack? The interview was conducted and published. Sure, I guess she could make yet another public declaration about her sexuality to clarify because she’s super special and apparently represents every single bisexual woman on the planet, but is that really necessary? Until she explicitly states that she finds relationships with women LESS THAN those with men because they’re not real or valid, then there is nothing wrong with her loving men and fucking women. I mean, granted, the phrasing was awkward, but she doesn’t get a mulligan on interview quotes (especially if it’s transcribed or edited).
You know, I’m sort of over the argument about whether Lady Gaga is or isn’t a ‘real bisexual’ or ‘real queer’ or whether she does her sexuality properly enough for everyone. I don’t care if she prefers men over women. Just DGAF on that one, and honestly as someone who dabbles in the dude pool sometimes, I’m kind of tired of hearing that bisexual women are responsible for proving to the world that “We totes don’t need penis to have fun, guys! Women are ENOUGH.” (as if that wasn’t a totally transphobic/gender essentialist idea to begin with… can the term ‘phallocentric’ die already?)
Anyway I’m not on the Gaga train, and I never have been. There are so many other legit concerns to bring up about her that have nothing to do with her guys to girls ratio.
Ok so technically I am one of those “bad bi folks” (though I just identify as “no labels”). I have had stronger romantic chemistry with more men than women, and though I am completely open to a same-sex romantic relationship, it has yet to happen.
In defense of Gaga- you can’t control who you like, or love. Chemistry, attraction and love are all things that are wired in our being. It may change over time, but this is a process that is not forced. I cannot judge anyone for having a preference.
However- I am pretty tired of other hetero-leaning bis being in complete denial of their privileges and acting like they’re some sort of super-special snowflakey marginalized group when in actuality, they really are not. Regardless of orientation, the average person in an opposite sex relationship isn’t marginalized or suffering any serious sort of oppression (and no- being shut off the the cool queer kids’ club really doesn’t count…especially if you’re over 30).
Also I find it pretty problematic when people equate sexual attraction and behavior to identification with a marginalized group…People of privilege have always experimented with the marginalized for their own pleasure…then go back to their privileged lives. Whether this is right or wrong is another discussion for another day, but my point is that straight-leaning bisexuals like Gaga are not in the same marginalized class as other LGBTs. They’re part of the privileged class.
I am part of the privileged class whenever I am in an opposite sex relationship as well. I own that. I’m not marginalized.
All I can do is to fight alongside my LGBT brothers and sisters to ensure that one day we are all equal.
<3
Gah! Meant “Shut off from the cool queer kids club”.
And thanks for the love @RLV! :D
wow you got at a lot of what I was trying to express and did it better +1 :)
*humbly curtsies* thankee! :)
All the <3 !!!
Wait, there's a cool queer kids club!? Why didn't I know?
Oh.
Sad.
sorry homie. it was a secret. :\
Except that bisexual women as a group are also more vulnerable to intimate partner violence (sexual and otherwise) when in relationship with cishet men. They are also more likely to be closeted which studies show, times and times again, is not a fun place to be. And it shows: higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse, depression, suicide attempts, and poor health overall, ect. And “being shunned off from the cool queer kids club” is in so far a problem as it makes you lack community – especially to other “cool” plurisexuals, and recourses, and visibility, and a voice, and pretty much everything that might be very much needed. So if you got lucky, I am very happy for you but I can’t appreciate that you talk like every bisexual woman has the same experiences. Not all are lucky like you, Suburban Soulgirl.
I knew it was a matter of time that someone would pull out that study. The problem with it is that it probably is reflective of the survey study (which is probably a small number of people), and not people like Gaga, or even myself. I know bi people who have suffered from drug/alcohol abuse, mental illness, etc., but these were issues they had even prior to coming out.
As far as me being “lucky”…far from it. I was the poster child of being shut out of social circles because I fit in absolutely no where. I am only lucky in the fact that I stopped trying to fit into certain “communities” and found a group of friends that accepted me as I am. Flaws and all.
It is not only about that one study. It is about the diversity of life. So before you shout out, that everyone in m/w relationships is amazingly privileged, it would be great to remember that not everyone is from liberal background, not everyone has supportive families or friends to rely on, not everyone has the same access to same amount of resources, in some regions of the world “not fitting into a social group” is not the worst thing to deal with,… That would be great, thanks.
Well, I have never denied that there was suffering out there, I have only said that there is definitely a privileged class of bisexual folks out there, and to stop pretending that the privilege doesn’t exist. So it would be nice if you didn’t put words in my mouth, thanks.
Also want to add: Gaga and other cishet-leaning bis have a right to speak about their experiences, but they seem to be the majority of the visible bisexuals…And when you have only the privileged class representing the face of bisexuality, it’s no wonder why people don’t believe that bi folks face any serious oppression.
And you presume a lot about my background. I was actually raised by a very conservative mother that didn’t take my coming out well *at* all. She thought I was confused, or attention-seeking and admitted that she would have accepted it more if I was a lesbian.
Straight people looked at me as if I was a pervert (and often assumed things about my sex life that is far from true), I faced a lot of biphobia from lesbians, and felt even more out place with other bisexuals (especially in activist circles) because I am not married or partnered with the opposite sex…and despite my leanings, I don’t see the same sex as a “plaything”- I was always open to the possibility of a same-sex relationship no matter what.
I felt supremely alone and even questioned if I was actually bi for the longest. I had to find friends in other circles and communities outside of the LGBT bubble and I got “lucky” because most of my friends are queer, or very accepting of me.
But nobody said anything about Gaga not being super duper privileged. And nobody was denying anything. You were the only one who wrote about being “hetero-leaning”, on this thread there was only acknowledgement that those people exist and they, too, belong to the plurisexual spectrum. So I don’t know why you jumped out of nowhere with your criticism of “hetero-leaning bis being in complete denial of their privileges and acting like they’re some sort of super-special snowflakey marginalized group when in actuality, they really are not”? That did not happen.
Suburban Soulgirl, I didn’t presume anything about your background. I don’t know you, so how could I? I really didn’t want to come harsh onto you, I just was confused who you were directing your criticism at:
Lady Gaga? – Yes, all kinds of privilege.
Every bi person in the world? – Not always the case. (And I am saying this as someone who was born and raised in Russia, okay? Just leave it at that.)
Haha, I can co-sign on the “accepted it more if I was a lesbian” mother thing. I don’t think that it would have been true, if it had been the case. That is probably some case of homophobia and the inability to accept doing weird things to peoples brains. They just hang on to the possibility of a man, consequently their hopes get crushed whenever there is a woman in the picture. Mothers…
Hey Red She Said,
Oooh you’re in Russia? Gotcha. I’ve always wanted to visit there one day, but apparently they don’t like black people either :'( . And yes- initially I thought you did come off a bit harsh, but now I think it’s more of a misunderstanding on both of our parts.
I do want to make clear that I don’t believe that every bisexual person in the world is privileged. I am American, so admittedly much of my rant was about what I’ve seen a lot in bisexual activist circles, and social groups (online and off) here in the states.
It seems to me that bisexual visibility (again- here in the US) is dominated by a privileged class who live in a heteronormative bubble, and whose only claim to oppression is being read as “straight” and/or social isolation by the LGs (which IMO, is such a non-issue…especially if you’re a fully grown adult). I was just basically saying that bisexual people in privileged situations such as mine are definitely part of the LGBT group, but we do not face the same oppressive, marginalizing crap that other LGBTQ people face (and to basically stop pretending that we do).
And also – that complaint of being invisible is pretty much moot since the cishet-leaning bi is basically the *only* image of bisexuals you ever see.
I guess in retrospect, that vent did come off left field, but it was brewing in my head for the longest.
My mother had finally accepted my orientation when I was in my 30s btw…and is very supportive. I guess age, wisdom and all. I still remember those fights we had, and it still really hurts my feelings.
And OT- Your cat is cute. <3
I don’t think it’s so much not being allowed in the cool gay club (whatever that means!) but rather not feeling right in *any* community. Perhaps that’s not been your experience, but it certainly was mine when I was still dating men. And, in many ways, it’s still my experience while married to a lady – I’m pretty sure 90% of the people I know assume that I’m a lesbian, which often leads to people (straight AND gay) saying some pretty biphobic shit in my presence.
Also, I think bisexual women in relationships with cis men are more visible because they have to claim their position in the queer community more loudly – I get in automatically because of my lady friend.
Hi Dina,
Re: Cool Queer Kids Club. It’s just a snarky phrase I made up in regards to het-leaning bi folks who complain about not fitting in with the rest of the LGBT community or despite having a loving spouse and everything else going for them, their life sucks because they’re read as straight and ergo “invisible”.
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t fit in anywhere myself. I am not out to straight people, or at work (and even with that, they are the least problematic of social spaces in my experience). I rarely, if ever go to lesbian spaces because of the biphobia I’ve faced there, and I no longer attend bisexual events because I feel even more out of place there than anywhere else.
However, I’ve had friends who couldn’t marry their spouses legally, have trans* women friends who face great stress because of their gender identity, and straight friends who face homelessness, poverty, and being “forever alone” because they feel they are unlovable due to some illness or medical condition they have.
Compared to the aforementioned, I am in a pretty good spot. So I pretty much am unsympathetic to those in a similar place as I am, because compared to what I see other people go through, that is a first world problem…
Fitting into a social space or being visible isn’t as important to me when you see people struggling to get their basic needs met, or marry the person you love. Perhaps I am just jaded and cynical.
I guess it’s just that I don’t think the Oppression Olympics is a worthwhile endeavour. Like, there are things that are tricky about all the things you mentioned, just as there are things that are tricky about being queer but married to the opposite sex. It doesn’t invalidate that.
Chances are good that there will always be someone worse off than you!
I don’t see it so much as oppression olympics as just that…well…a non-priority (at least for me). Social ostracization certainly blows chunks, but the reality is that not everyone is going to like or accept you (or me, or anyone for that matter) and there’s not much anyone can do to change that.
I just don’t understand how people think Gaga is trying to represent ‘all bisexual women everywhere EVER’ like, I know she is famous and all, but can’t she say from her own experience? Like, if I said all butch presenting women are really super feminine and sissys on the inside just bc my gf is and that is my experience (God bless her adorable little soul and Victoria secret panties) that dosent mean I think ALL BUTCHES EVERYWHERE are like that nor am I representing them all like that by saying that. And I’m sure bisexual women sleep with a lot of men before deciding they like women better too. I can’t say bc I’m not bi but I would imagine this is the caze
The tone of a lot of comment rub me wrong in the way that flamboyant gay men are shunned by “straight acting” gay men does. The flamboyant men are shamed for falling in to a stereotype that is oppressive to other types of gay men. They’re told to “act normal” because they’re making the others look bad and they’re held responsible for constantly letting everyone know that “not all gay men are like that.” That’s not fair and it creates a layer of shame for them.
That’s the impression I’m getting from many comments. Gaga (just telling an anecdote about her life and explaining her preference) is wrong for not making sure to let everyone know that not all bisexual women* are like her because she aligns with a stereotype that oppresses other bisexual women*. That just doesn’t sit well with me. I understand the frustration and anger that comes with being stereotyped (I’m a QWoC from a very not wealthy family) but I don’t like where the anger is being directed. I direct my issues in the direction of people doing the stereotyping not someone answering a question about her personal experiences. I just don’t hold famous people any more accountable than everyone else. That’s a Burch of unfair pressure to put on a person if they didn’t ask for it. I don’t stop moc women* on the street and tell them to make sure that they let everyone know that not all lesbians are like that because the stereotypes hurt me. I don’t stop “girly girls” coming out of nail salons and berating them for falling into a heteronormative stereotype. And I won’t do it here. If she ever makes a statement where she does say that her preference is true for all bisexual women * I’ll roll up a newspaper, find her and pop her on the back of the head with it. Until then, I won’t shame anyone for falling into a stereotype or for not making it their mission to constantly let the world know that not everyone is like them.
There are plenty of reasons to be mad at her. I just don’t see one here. That’s all I have to say on the issue.
I really wish we could edit our comments.
Bunch not Burch (idk what that is)
She liked the way the women that came on to her did so at the lesbian bars and was looking for that kind of attitude in a guy. Just like I love my straight guys friends’ sense of humor and kindness but I’d prefer it wrapped in boobs, a vagina, female identifying and preferably my height. I’m tired of having to literally look up to my girlfriends.
What the world really needs is more prominent (and intelligent!), out, queer ladies in music. More representation spells fewer straight people assuming all bisexuals and lesbians “just haven’t found the right man yet” because of one woman’s personal preferences – preferences to which she is entitled, no matter how flawed she may be in many ways, cause free will.
For me, the problem isn’t Gaga’s orientation. The fact that she sleeps with girls and falls in love with men is fine. That’s just how she is. The problem is with what she said.
Saying “And it wasn’t until I found a guy who could come on to me as strong as a lesbian that I fell in love” is problematic and offensive because it throws women who are romantically attracted to women under the bus. It implies that women aren’t worth being loved and thus of course Gaga wasn’t able to find love until she met a man who had the lesbian qualities that she liked. I think a better way for Gaga to put it would have been something along the lines of “I’m sexually attracted to women and romantically attracted to men”. That way the facts are being stated without putting anyone down.
“Of course I could [fall in love with a woman]! There are no rules or limits when it comes to love,’ she says. ‘But I see love as separate from sex. And I happen to love male sexuality.”
This is a quote she made when asked about her love life, before (and sober). I’m not sure if that makes a difference to anyone it doesn’t make her phrasing any less cringe worthy but she’s never (are least not in the media) said that relationships with women aren’t as valuable or that she’s opposed to it. There’s also a rumor that she’s afraid of backlash from her traditional family if she does fall for a woman. This information provided by a fan of hers that I follow on Tumblr. She’s not one to ignore or write off the terrible things Gaga does so I’ll take her word for it.
I don’t know how many times I have to tell people (usually white people) that ass-shaking and wearing grills (basically what Miley is doing) is not black culture.
I am black.
I should know.
It’s hip-hop culture, which at this point belongs to the world (as many rappers have said themselves), not black people.
You know who is ACTUALLY culture appropriating?
Selena Gomez.
Yep. And nobody is calling her out for it either.
Being Bi has made it difficult to date anyone long-term, in my experience. I’ve recognized an unfortunate pattern with both men and women:
Bad guys just want to know if I’ll have a three-way/fear I will leave them for a woman, and Bad Girls fear that I want a co-ed three-way/will leave them for a man. This makes it exceedingly difficult to win the heart of anyone, when from the start they clearly do not trust me. It is assumed immediately that I am incapable of commitment, yet no one is willing to give me the chance to commit. This is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE problem. It doesn’t make sense to blame the Bi’s for being non-committal when, speaking for myself, ALL I WANT IS SOMEONE TO COMMIT TO ME! YOU CAN’T CALL ME OUT FOR BEING NON-COMMITTAL, IF FROM THE BEGINNING YOU ARE AFRAID TO COMMIT TO ME. That is some pot vs kettle BULL SHIZNIT.
I WANT TO COMMIT. I CANNOT STRESS THAT ENOUGH!I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SCREWING AROUND WITH PEOPLE AND FURTHERING GENERAL DATING INSECURITIES AND ANXIETIES; IM NOT A SOCIOPATH. (And for the record, I don’t want ANY three-ways either.) I’m just a Bisexual…
What REALLY bothers me is when people assume that Bi doesn’t really exist and that ALL of us are either “confused” or “attention-seeking.” Are there those types? I’d be completely ignorant to say no, but isn’t it just as ignorant to make a generalization that ALL Bi-identifiers are incapable of commitment? I see you nodding your head…Atta Kid! Down with the Bi-phobia and use of generalizations and All…. That…. JAAAAAAAAzz…What? I like Chicago…Where was I? Oh, right.
To me, it seems we are “critiqued” no matter what we do. I’m either not gay enough, or I am not straight enough. I’m BI! IM NOT GAY OR STRAIGHT! THAT’S HOW BI WORKS. I feel like Bi’s can’t win no matter what we do.
I will say this, even as a VERY diehard “Little Monster,” I DIDN’T CARE WHAT GAGA SAID REGARDING HER SEXUALITY. She can fuck whomever she wants. Bi all means, get your fuck on. Damn, now I’m going to be considered a slut for that statement…Sigh…Fucking hell at stereotypes.