Most erotic thrillers follow the same structure. The sexuality and adventure of the first two acts gives way to punishment in the third. But Halina Reijn’s new film Babygirl is a different kind of erotic thriller. There’s no punishment here — just desperate attempts to understand the self, to find freedom beyond shame.

I think Reijn’s previous film Bodies Bodies Bodies is one of the smartest, most subversive thrillers (and comedies) in recent years. It’s another film that plays with genre, swapping easy conclusions for nuance. After a decades-long career as an actor, Reijn’s arrival as a director has brought a new voice to genres that desperately need it.

I was lucky enough to talk to Reijn about how queerness impacts her work, the most erotic movie moments of all time, and her unique background.

Drew: I’m really interested in the role that Romy’s queer daughter plays in the film as well as the queerness of the club that Romy and Samuel visit. Especially in the context of Bodies Bodies Bodies which is very explicitly queer, how did queerness influence Babygirl and what role does it play in your work in general?

Halina: Well, I’m Gen X, so I’m such a dinosaur.

Drew: (laughs)

Halina: And when I was making Bodies Bodies Bodies, I was incredibly inspired by that cast because they taught me so much about feminism, about becoming my authentic self, about my body, about how stuck I was in this old idea of feminism. That really moved me to my core. And, of course, we had a lot of fun with it on-screen, but truthfully in my private life it was incredibly important.

So when I was writing Babygirl, I wanted it to not only be a film about a woman who tries to liberate herself and learn to ask for what she wants and needs but to also be a movie about two generations. How one generation deals with power, sex, control, consent and how a new generation deals with sexual identity, identity in general, freedom, liberation, and what all of that means to them. I wanted my main character who is Gen X to learn from her assistant Esme, played by Sophie Wilde, who for me speaks the most truthful words when she does this speech at the end where she says we need to go into areas where we’re afraid, go into the areas where we’re ashamed, and that’s what will connect us. My main character is flawed and my main character doesn’t listen to her at all in the beginning. And it’s the lessons of Esme, of her daughter played by Esther McGregor, and of Samuel played by Harris Dickinson, that help her come closer to who she really is.

Drew: I love that. We think of age gaps on-screen as being erotic or scandalous, but I like the idea that it can also portray generations learning from one another.

Halina: Yes!

Drew: Because I do think that happens.

Halina: It does happen. And, of course, I understand that generations are always a generalization because everyone is an individual and everybody has their own path. But I think the younger generations have a very healthy and new and refreshing relationship to identity. You no longer have to be scared of it. You can just be who you want to be. This is maybe only for a group that’s privileged enough to do that kind of work and we have to be aware of people who don’t have the circumstances to even think about these things, but I am so inspired by it. I wish I could learn more from it, because I’m still stuck in certain beliefs.

Drew: Starting with your debut feature, Instinct, you’ve always been drawn to showing sexuality on-screen and exploring desire. Why is that important to you?

Halina: To me, sexuality is a great metaphor to talk about things we’re afraid of and suppressing. Anything you suppress in yourself is going to come out in a dangerous, risky way. And that’s happening in my movie, right? She doesn’t sit Antonio Banderas’ character down and say, we need to have a conversation, because I feel all these things. What she does is crawl under a sheet and whisper that she wants to watch porn and it’s very unclear and he doesn’t understand and he feels not seen by her in that moment. So to me sexuality in Instinct and in this movie — and also in Bodies because even though it’s not a sexual movie, there is sensuality and toxicity — is a way for me to go into areas of myself where I feel shame and suppression. But, of course, in the end it’s more existential: How can I transcend the patriarchy that we live in? Who would I be if I lived in a matriarchy? Who I would be if I lived on an island with just an elephant? Who would I be then? That’s the question I’m asking and sex is just a great tool. Also it seduces people to come watch the movie. (laughs)

Drew: (laughs) Yes.

Halina: Because everybody is ashamed of sexuality, I think. Everybody is carrying around a little box of hidden fantasies. It’s a way to talk about things that are scary.

Drew: Can you talk about the casting of Antonio Banderas and the shaping of that character? Because it’s not totally unheard of to cast a cultural heartthrob in the role of the husband to an unsatisfied woman. But in something like Unfaithful, Richard Gere’s sex appeal is pointedly reduced. You don’t do that here. You still let Antonio Banderas be sexy.

Halina: That was exactly what was so important to me. In the end, it’s about her. It’s about her not being able to ask for what she needs and wants. So it was very important for me to cast her husband as an incredibly sexy and incredibly masculine man. I didn’t want it to be a story where he couldn’t dominate her. No! I wanted him to be completely able to do that! It just isn’t something she’s dared to ask for.

Also if I’m in a very long relationship and we watch Netflix together and do the dishes together then when I’m in bed I feel like, well I’m not going to talk dirty to you, I do the dishes with you. Sometimes it’s easier to be reborn with somebody who you have absolutely no context with — Harris Dickinson in this case — and you suddenly allow yourself to do things you would never do with your spouse. It’s a paradox because you would think the more intimate you get the more free you get. So I just wanted to show these very human, ambiguous layers. Anything nuanced and complex is when we recognize ourselves. We can’t relate when it’s too cartoonish and obvious.

Drew: How did your experiences as an actor shape your approach to directing?

Halina: The first thing I have on my mind when I work with actors — this has become such a weird word — but it’s a feeling of safety. I find acting, myself, incredibly embarrassing. It’s the weirdest profession on the face of the earth.

Drew: (laughs)

Halina: People stand around you in North Face jackets eating pizza while you’re like OH GODDDD!! So I just want to create an atmosphere where everybody feels seen. I want that for the crew as well. I collaborate. I come from hippies and communes and I kind of bring that system where it’s not a hierarchy with me sitting in a high chair telling everybody what to do. I don’t think it’s a good thing to enjoy your power. You have to be decisive and clear as a leader, but at the same time you’re working with people who have so much experience and are so talented. I come to set with a very clear starting plan but I want to give them the freedom to bring their ideas and creativity so that they can be completely in the moment. That’s how you get the electrifying performances that feel real. That’s what I’m always looking for.

Drew: You said you come from hippies and communes. And that’s also a background you give to Romy. Can you talk more about that?

Halina: Yeah so my dad was gay, my mom was straight, they joined a spiritual movement called Subud. It still exists and in LA it’s pretty big. I was named by the guru. And it’s all based on this idea of freedom and no boundaries and meditation and spiritual-I-don’t-know-what. So we grew up in a very loving, very, very loving environment, but we didn’t have a lot of structure. The main character in my movie loves structure. She loves robots, she loves the white picket fence, that’s how she wants to live. I’m still a bit of a hippie myself, but I put a lot of my childhood and a lot of my frustration around structure into the movie.

Drew: Earlier you said that almost everyone has a complicated relationship to sex. And I think it’s very easy to say that about people who grow up in really Puritanical family structures. But I know a lot of people with backgrounds that are more similar to yours who still have baggage around their sexuality despite — or because of — that freedom.

Halina: We all have baggage, because, of course, society as a whole has baggage around it. I’m a child of the sexual revolution. I was raised with anything goes, just be yourself, but the reaction to that is fear. If there’s too much space then it’s also scary. You need a little bit of organization and structure to become yourself. I love the ideals of that generation. I love what they wanted to achieve and they did achieve a lot for all of us. They paved the way for us to become more free. But the irony of life is that the reaction of those children, of my generation, is to repress yourself sexually. Life is just a very funny game.

Drew: What are some examples of desire on-screen that resonate with you?

Halina: I have so many. My favorite is in Dangerous Liaisons. “It’s beyond my control.” Everyone should look that scene up. It’s John Malkovich and Michelle Pfieffer and it’s so hot. And then there’s a scene in The Piano where Holly Hunter is playing the piano and there’s a little hole in her stocking and Harvey Keitel puts his finger on the hole. That’s all he’s doing. There’s no sex! And it feels so sexual I’m blushing all the way through. I still love Basic Instinct when she uncrosses her legs. I know Sharon Stone has a difficult relationship to the scene and I want to honor that, but when I first saw that it gave me a lot of arousal. And then 9 ½ Weeks. The whole movie A to Z. To me, that movie is one big coming home.

Babygirl is now in theatres.

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