Before Carly Usdin was my friend, I was a fan.

I watched their debut feature Suicide Kale soon after coming out and felt inspired witnessing a hyper low-budget queer film that was also, well, good. And not just good, but — within its budgetary limits — formally confident. When I moved to LA, Carly and Suicide Kale writer/star Brittani Nichols were two of the most generous people I met, both in welcoming me as a friend and in providing support and wisdom as I learned about Hollywood.

It’s been such a gift to have an intimate window into the ways Carly has navigated an impossible industry and get to watch all of the wonderful work they’ve made despite the hurdles. Their latest project is Monét’s Slumber Party, a surreal, super queer talk show hosted by Monét X Change. The first episode premiered last week and it is laugh-out-loud funny from beginning to end.

I spoke with Carly about the creation of this show, its connections to their WNBA sketch series, and what’s next for queer media.

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Drew: I was cracking up this morning watching the episode. Obviously I was going to do this interview to talk to you, but then I was fully cackling and Elise was like what are you watching?? And I was like I’m watching Carly’s show!

Can you start by talking about your history working with drag queens? Because you are part of RuPaul’s Drag Race herstory in some big ways.

Carly: Remember when I sent you— I think I called it the Carly Drag Race Syllabus?

Drew: (laughs) Yes.

Carly: I found it the other day and was like damn I have done a lot with Drag Race. It just keeps continuing. It’s so special that drag queens keep finding their way back into my work. Getting to combine something I love outside of my work with my work is such an honor and a privilege.

In college, I helped put on big drag shows with my best friend Cesar in Orlando. Then fast forward I’m working at Logo and I’m making Drag Race promos for the early seasons of the show with all these Florida girls I knew from college like Coco, Roxxxy, and Detox. It was crazy. Coco was already an iconic performer, but when I was there Detox and Roxxxy were baby drag queens. It’s incredible to see where they started from and where they have blossomed into. Team Roxxxy for All Stars 9.

But yeah I happened to be making TV promos for Logo when Drag Race launched a million years ago. I got to edit and help produce the promos for seasons one through three and then for season four, my boss was like alright it’s yours. I truly don’t know if I’d have the balls to pitch this concept now because I know too much and am too hardened, but, as a young person, I was like we’re going to make the craziest thing anyone has ever seen. I pitched this retrofuturistic sci-fi fantasia where RuPaul creates the contestants in a lab and then the lab explodes. Because the fierceness is too much. Obviously.

Drew: (laughs) Of course.

Carly: To this day, one of the craziest things I’ve done. It was the first thing I directed professionally and my first day on set I had to direct RuPaul. The only direction I’d done prior to that was like my friends in stupid videos. I was just like oh my god this is an icon. I grew up loving RuPaul and watching The RuPaul Show on VH1. It was truly incredible.

Then I directed season five promos, All Stars 1 promos, a cute little Orbitz campaign with some of the girls from AS1, this crazy choose your own adventure Absolut Ru-Dunnit mystery series with the season four girls. And then I moved from New York to LA and became freelance. I knew everyone from World of Wonder, because of working on all the promos, so I hit them up and asked what I could do. They brought me in right away and I helped launch their YouTube channel which essentially became WOW Presents Plus. I helped create early episodes of Alyssa’s Secret and things like that. I got to do a bunch of content for the seasons five, six, and seven finales and reunions. I was on the ground with a little crew backstage getting ready, just having a blast, making the silliest videos. Then they launched DragCon a few years later and they sent me to the first ever DragCon to film and document the whole thing. The energy in that room was unbelievable and it’s only blown up since.

Then I was at Entertainment Tonight and Entertainment Weekly for a while and got to do a bunch of Drag Race stuff there. I’ve done some music videos with the girls over the years. And then I guess that brings us to this: Monét’s Slumber Party.

Drew: And how did this come about? It feels like such a natural progression.

Carly: Literally when I got an email about this project I felt like if it got made and I hadn’t known about it, I would’ve been crushed because it’s so me.

Drew: Absolutely.

Carly: I got an email from the producer of Monét’s Slumber Party, Ebony Elaine Hardin. We were in the fellowship program at Women in Film together. I was a directing fellow and she was a producing fellow. She reached out and said, we’re looking for directors for this new show, I saw your work, I feel like this is right up your alley, let’s talk. And I was like, wow is it ever. The way we describe it is PeeWee’s Playhouse meets Graham Norton — chat show but zany, wacky variety show energy. And growing up PeeWee’s Playhouse was one of my favorite things so I cannot imagine a more perfect project for me. We’re combining silly stuff, comedy, queer stuff, there’s a puppet. Immediately I was like what do I need to do to get this job?

Drew: And once you got the job, what was the production process like?

Carly: When I started they had their showrunner Paul Robalino who is incredible and the folks at Dropout led by Paul developed this with Monét. She came to them after doing Dungeons and Drag Queens. So by the time I came on Paul had already figured out the format, had a small writers room that was generating different games and segments, and the recurring characters were already established. I got to inherit all of those things and then figure out how we do it and start putting my own spin on it.

Drew: Even though the first person you ever directed was RuPaul, do you still get starstruck? Was there any guest that was particularly exciting for you?

Carly: This season was fun, because it was mostly people I’d already worked with before. A long time ago when I first moved to LA, I directed a bunch of sketches at College Humor which was essentially Dropout before it became Dropout so I knew a lot of the recurring cast members already. And then I’d worked with a lot of the queens before. I’d worked with Monét, I’d worked with Alaska, I’d worked with Jujubee. It was great to see everyone again.

But I was a little starstruck by Joel Kim Booster. As a queer filmmaker who is especially interested in romantic comedies, Fire Island was such a fabulous movie. I loved his script and loved his performance so getting to work with him for even a short period of time was exciting. Before he left, I told him that I loved the movie and then I felt really corny for doing that. But I think people like when you tell them you love their things.

Drew: Yeah! Especially in that environment.

Carly: I’ve directed a lot of queer things. I think this might be the queerest.

Drew: I think it might be which is really saying something.

Carly: I don’t know what percentage of the cast is queer and trans but it’s very high.

Drew: Yeah also there’s a puppet and a robot.

Carly: A filthy gay puppet! When I first came on they were like, we want to do something with a puppet and I was like yes. I got to do something with puppets in the past and it was a lifelong dream as someone who grew up watching all of the Jim Henson properties. I’ve always been obsessed with puppets.

We auditioned a few different puppeteers and eventually went with Jonathan Kidder who I’ve actually known for years. We’ve worked together a few times and getting to reunite for this was so much fun. We didn’t give him a ton for the character Mitch. We just said he lives in Monét’s closet and he’s queer. For MAMA, Monét’s AI assistant — Priscilla Davies does her voice and is so funny — we said MAMA is an AI assistant who doesn’t really like doing it. So if they ask for something you can just be like nah I’m busy, I’m tired. But with Mitch we just let Kidder come up with something on his own. He came in with the voice and we were like, yeah that’s perfect, this is Mitch.

We’re sort of thinking of the show as a pilot season. It’s only six episodes, we shot it all in three days, so you’re also seeing us find our footing in real time. And something I was always conscious of was balancing Monét as the host, the four or five guests, and then these two additional characters. But it happened really naturally.

Drew: Yeah I mean even the first episode flows really well.

Carly: It’s so silly.

Drew: You’re also doing this after doing The Syd + TP Show and there’s a shared DNA between these two series. What did you learn during that experience that informed this one?

Carly: I like to think that maybe I’m finally carving out a niche for things that are both queer and undeniably stupid.

Drew: (laughs)

Carly: And if I call something stupid that’s the highest compliment.

Drew: Sure absolutely.

Carly: I am an unserious person. And I bring that unseriousness to my work. So I like to think that with these two projects I’m finally figuring out my voice as a filmmaker and it’s gay stupidity. We need more of that.

The Syd + TP Show was another one that was so perfect for me. I’d say my two favorite things in life are drag and women’s sports. And The Syd + TP Show is a buddy comedy about two WNBA champions who are also benchwarmers and have decided that because they won a title they’re hot shit and are the faces of the league. There was a built in delusion to that show that made it even less grounded than Monét’s Slumber Party.

With this one, I wanted it to feel like a magical place where anything could possibly happen at any given moment. We exist in reality but there are some things that are inexplicable. A specific example is every time we transition into a new segment I made a rule that any setup has to have already happened. We see a graphic transition and then suddenly it’s different. But people still enter and exit through a front door and still receive a text. It’s oddly grounded whereas The Syd + TP Show was absolute silliness.

But you’re right they absolutely share DNA. The fact that either of these shows exist is kind of a miracle. They’re both these deeply queer, niche, silly shows and the fact that anyone gave us money to make either of them is kind of shocking to me. I feel so lucky to have gotten to do both.

Drew: What do drag queens and basketball players have in common?

Carly: A lot more than you’d think, Drew. (laughs)

Drew: (laughs)

Carly: Actually, this year and the year before the final four of the women’s college basketball championship and the finale of the main Drag Race season fell around the same date. And I was like wow I love watching women compete, I love watching strong, fabulous women do things. Last year I was Team Sasha Colby and Team South Carolina. The two SCs.

Drew: I love that timeline crossover. They’re also both almost entirely gay except Maddy Morphosis and the handful of straight WNBA players.

Carly: There are a handful of straight WNBA players.

Drew: Yeah I don’t want to erase anyone’s heterosexuality.

Carly: I will not be party to any heterosexual erasure.

Drew: But they are very queer professions.

Carly: They’re very queer and have very loyal fanbases and both have very interesting portrayals of femininity. There’s strength there, but not in a Strong Woman sort of way. People are multi-faceted. There’s a dynamic femininity I find really interesting. And, hey, what is competition if not drag?

Drew: Hmmmm.

Carly: That doesn’t make any sense.

Drew: “All sports are drag.” – Carly Usdin

Carly: Exactly, Drew. Exactly. That’s the pull quote.

Drew: Speaking of the existence of these two shows, audiences are starting to notice we’re in a dip in queer media. It’s a dip that we who work in the industry noticed a couple years ago because production was starting to dry up.

Carly: Exactly. Things take time.

Drew: Where do you think shows like this that aren’t being produced by Netflix or major networks but are being produced fit into this narrative? Are you feeling optimistic? Are you feeling frustrated? Both?

Carly: It’s a real mixed bag. I feel so excited to have gotten to make these two shows. But you’re right they aren’t on Netflix or Hulu or whatever. But truly one of the most wonderful working experiences I’ve ever had was working on this show with Dropout. The ethos that starts at the top of the company and trickles down to every person there — from staff to freelance — there is this feeling that people are human beings before being measured by our output.

Drew: What a concept!

Carly: Truly. But how many jobs have you worked on where that’s part of it?

Drew: Right.

Carly: I sent this crazy email to everyone at Dropout after we wrapped production. This was a transformative experience for me. I’ve been directing for twelve years and this is the most taken care of I’ve felt both as a director and as a person.

Whenever I’m in a position to hire people, I want to create a harmonious, even utopian environment, to make the fact that we are working feel less worky. Our jobs are to make things and every time I step on a set I feel so lucky that I get to do this, that I get to paid to do this. So a company like Dropout feels so aligned with my own ethics and getting in with them and getting to do this project and having this new batch of co-conspirators is so exciting. I’m so excited for what Dropout is doing and the future of Dropout. All of their shows are hilarious and there is this kind of innate queerness to so much of it. Getting to be part of that is so special.

But, on the other side of it, I’m like what are all the people with the bigger budgets and all the reach and resources in the world, when are they going to let us do stuff like this? So there’s a part of me that’s super frustrated. Right now I’m trying to get a couple features off the ground and they’re super queer and we are having really interesting conversations around those. One of them is an indie feature so we’re going the financier route and having those challenges and the other one is more of a big studio project and we’re pitching that to production companies and big names and it has been frustrating. So I think it’s both. I’m in the same frustrated place as so many of us and our peers as far as queer representation. It’s crazy that we’re starting to have the same conversations we were having ten plus years ago. It’s disheartening in many ways. But things like Monét’s Slumber Party and The Syd + TP Show give me hope. Julio Torres’ new show Fantasmas gives me hope.

Drew: It’s so good!!

Carly: I was watching with my jaw dropped the whole time. I was like this is the future. This is unbelievable. I’m also desperate to get back to New York this summer to see Cole Escola’s Oh, Mary! that’s on fucking Broadway.

Drew: I know. It’s crazy.

Carly: These are the people I look at who give me hope when I get frustrated by the rest of it. Because really it just feels like we’re having to revert back to the queer indie roots. Even back to New Queer Cinema of the 90’s. Maybe we’re just doing that again and that’s not the worst thing in the world.

Drew: And then you have a situation where Dropout gets big enough hits that all of a sudden the bigger people with worse ethics are like wait how do we get our hands on this? Or Oh, Mary! is such a hit that it goes to Broadway.

Carly: Right.

Drew: Not to say there wasn’t queer work in the late 2010’s and even now that has squeezed through on these major platforms and been amazing. But I also know from experience and you know from experience that there are conversations that happen during those productions that water them down. It’s like “wow I can’t believe this is on Netflix!” but we don’t get to see the three jokes or storylines that were cut. And so it’s better when you get something like Monét’s Slumber Party in a space where top down it’s supported. Not to say that if you cut the three best jokes, it wouldn’t still be good, but I’m glad they weren’t cut.

Carly: We don’t have to!

Drew: You know what I mean? So there are major benefits to going smaller. But then we all have rent to pay and also there are things you can do on bigger budgets that aren’t possible otherwise. So I also feel the both.

That said, the indie films I’m seeing now don’t feel like they’re being made by queer people who are thinking oh if this is a success I could get my own TV show on HBO. It feels like people are making these movies because they want to make these movies and are putting everything into them.

Carly: Absolutely.

Drew: To be honest, the indies I’m seeing now are way more like Suicide Kale. They’re hyper low budget… and they’re good. And again I’m speaking in real broad generalizations, but I do think the 2010’s had a string of queer indies that felt as uninteresting as whatever Hollywood was doing just with a hipster soundtrack. So it’s exciting to me. Because Suicide Kale was always such an anamoly.

Carly: Yeah it really was. (laughs) This is probably a conversation for another day, but there’s a part of me that feels like if we had made Suicide Kale even five years after we made it that it would’ve been a much bigger conversation.

Drew: Oh yeah.

Carly: There’s part of me that— I’m about to have a very vulnerable moment— I feel like I keep being ahea—

Drew: No, it’s true. You can say it.

Carly: I’ve had these moments in my career where I feel like I’m ahead of everyone else with what I’m doing and then that gets lost once that thing blows up.

Drew: I mean, you were making promos for Drag Race in season four. The idea of being at the first DragCon… You’re not old! Everything has been changing in queer media so quickly. Especially when it comes to drag stuff to the point where we’re now at the backlash, being legislated against phase. Everything is happening so quickly.

Carly: It’s whiplash.

Drew: Yeah it’s crazy. So the fact that you can be like, I was here at the ground floor of these institutions and it’s—

Carly: It feels very get off my lawn.

Drew: But it was so recent!

Carly: (laughs) You’re right it wasn’t that long ago.

Drew: No, so if you feel embarrassed to say it, I’ll say it. You have been at the forefront of queer media in a lot of ways.

Carly: I’m cringing.

Drew: You’re not saying it. I’m saying it.

Carly: And also I know that it’s…

Drew: It’s true.

Carly: It’s true.

Drew: And also it is exciting to see things like Monét’s Slumber Party and Syd + TP and feel like this is so you. It’s not those features getting made and that’s frustrating but it’s still amazing work that exists. And I do think the other stuff will follow. But yeah if Suicide Kale had come out in 2021, you would’ve gotten to direct your Bottoms. (laughs)

Carly: (laughs) I’d be offered Jurassic Park. Carly, you did such a good job with this movie you made for $1,000, here are the keys to Jurassic Park.

Drew: I mean, they were letting straight men do that. When you made Suicide Kale, you were right after the early 2010’s when the straight people who did that actually did get those deals.

Carly: They truly did. The guys who had success with low-budget indies were legitimately handed the keys to huge studio franchises.

Drew: Yeah but a lot of that work isn’t good. Like I have faith that when your features get made they’ll actually be good. I think you have to be a little honest with yourself that no you weren’t handed the keys to Jurassic Park but if you had wanted to make different choices you could’ve sold out and done bigger work that wasn’t good. But instead your work has been consistently good and consistently queer and if anything is getting gayer and gayer. So when you get the keys not to Jurassic Park — though imagine gay dinosaurs what a gift — but those features get made they’re going to be done on your terms and on the terms of your collaborators and your collaborators will be great and it will have been worth the wait.

I feel very optimistic about you even if I feel less optimistic about the world at large and Hollywood at large. But I feel very confident about your future. You’re gonna do great things, kid.

Carly: Oh Drew. Ay ay ay. Thank you for saying that. It means so much coming from you, because you have impeccable taste.

Drew: Thank you.

Carly: And are just a visionary yourself.

Drew: Well, hopefully our body swap movie can get made.

Carly: It’s gonna be so great when it comes out in 2037.

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Monét’s Slumber Party is now streaming on Dropout TV.